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HomeMy WebLinkAbout1985-10-29 Public Safety Committee MinutesPublic Safety Cmmittee Public Hearing Re: Firearms Discharge October 29, 1985 at 5:15 p.m. City Countil Chambers Present: Councilor Willey, Brom, Tilley; Captain Stockford 1. Council Order 85-366 "Firearms Discharge Zones in the City of Bangor'. This Council Order specifically, deals with the areas around the Church Road, Essex Street and Pushaw Fond. This meeting is a continuation of a prior Public Safety Committee greeting held at 4:00 p.m. at which time the Committee met with Captain Stockbord and went to view the area in question for approximately one hoar. For the record, Committee met with several residents on the Church Rad and did have a lively discussion. The Committee opened the public hearing up to anyone who had comments relative to this issue. Richard Cohen: 1411 Church lrad) I'm Curious as W why with so much open land as there is in and around the Bangor area why this one little stretch of road seems to be so important W hunters in the area - why can't they go 30 or 15 minutes away whare there is not as many people and children and school vases. Wilms I can't really answer your question. I do know there is some sentiment by hunters that they certainly want to protect some of the area. One of the reasons we did continue the public hearing was W give everyone an opportunity W address this before we make a recommendation W the full City Council. tea have an obligation to balance the rights of the property wnera W do on their land what functions they feel appropriate such as hunting and we've got W balance that against the public safety and the general pnhlic welfare. It's our job W try W balance that in a fair and reasonable way. It's not a cut and dry and simple issue. I can understand all points of view. wasn't this kind of short notice? r Willev: Could you give us your name and address, and I'd be happy W answer you. Tozier: I live on Brwdway adjacent W the area you are talking about and naturally I'm interested. I just heard about this about two minutes ago. Willey: This is a continuation of a meeting that we held a week ago. The reason we continued it was because we felt same people hadn't heard about it. We got it published in the paper and there was an article In there today and we don't have any way of notifying people other than through the newspaper, obviously. Tozier: I didn't know they had a meeting before. Willey: We had a meeting about a weak ago. We have received again this year some comments from members of the public that they are having increased problems with bunters on their property. As you know last year, I wasn't on this Committee, but the Public Safety Committee last year also dealt with this and we worked amend with those zones than. Insist: Inst year they decided they Would post their property end with the antentlm that anyone that wanted W host on those iMividual people's land would get permission. I understand they are raising heck out there but at the sane time nobody goes in W stop anybody. Has the wardens or intercepted aybody and brought than or just taking it ... Police Willey: Mr. Tozier, Captain Stockfced £rrsrs the Bangor Police Department is with us today, in fact he is the Ohre who took us around this afternoon and We want through all the pmpactY SO We mind good view a goview W be spm Eatilisr with the area. Capt. Stockford could perhape answer your question. regarding enfo[csment and the difficulty with enforcement. As W posting, personally I saw at least On the Clarch Road almost the entire Church Road being posted by property hunters of m hunting and M trespassing, so it appears the property aarrers have attempsaj through signs W place posting 11 along that mad. It's my own observation. As far as enforcarent, perhaps Capt. Stcckford can anaxon. Stockfced:. Coe point at a thes. Ihus far this fall we have apprehended or Lnterapted ons parson out there reported for trespassing. I feel quite frankly we were lucky to make that contact. That's a long stretch of grouts, Fran the thou sonsons is noticed violating the law, the call roes in to us, We sand a crosier, aur chances of actually making that contact is slim, havectoo co centrate our forceof sawherettheeare houses amid strreets.area. I would like W tell You we could put an officer on the Church goad sound the clock W try W deal with this but the reality is we simply can't do chef, IVs Mann[ hast the manpo I think sans folks in the toms have talked W the Maine state wardsarvien service and have gotten similar iMlcations fors them, By the nature of the sort of infraction are are talking about it's a difficult woo to enforce made core difficult by the ares, Tnsier: I would think it would he Dore W W the warden service than You IrenRle. It should he no problem for then as they spell days and nights in the Woods just looking for that. : MAY I make a suggestion on that - I've talked W the warden service and the warden service will not enforce any city Omicence. Willem; That's what we a Srahud, Capt, Stnckford, what is your uMetstavling about trespass issues and the Warden Service as is relates W Bangor. Stockford: you are dealing with 3 potential violations here. We don't enforce game violations unless it happens right in our presenca. tea won't send our officers into the Woods W investigate poaching, for instance, it's a gate wardens area. By the same token, this gentlemen is correct in that a warden Won't rose into Bangor enforce a City ordfhance. The other type of violation is a criminal violation. Of ¢aminal trespassing ieregardless of hunting or whatever - the fact they we on somuxe else's property without permission. Whether or not a gene warden mould, I don't know. I can't speak for than, Cossibly if you had one there and said that can is trespessing and I want sanrething dare, it is a state Statute and I Would they e ink would he enpowe[ud W enforce it. Vltaditionally, they don't Walley: anyone else) Please give us your name ants address. -3- JoM Merrill: I live at 1953 Essex Street. I wasn't notified of this meeting and I was kind of ticked off. Nor were my neighbors. We went tacugh this last year about this written permission, etc. They were supposedly, the police were going to put miss on the windshield of cars that are parked on Cnurch Read, etc., telling tam they needed written permission, etc. This wasn't done was it? Stockford: Yes, sir, it was. This is the notice here. Merrill: What about the cars parked on private property? I know down by Iewra Jenks place, would you put one there? SWckford: if you point out specific cars that are in a gravel pit or words rand, for instance, we try to matte contact. Merrill: He lives next dour to Seabreeze - between there and the grange hall. Always has been several cars parked in them early in the :turning. I imagine ones Saturday Lure will be oars Lure. They should he notified. I personally can't see why we can't give this new ordinance a change to Werk and rather than close the whole area. Majority of people want to keep it open for hunting especially on their own property. I knw I do. We on through this every year. I have a large amount of land and W neighbors do. I have a shooting range on my property. I pay emugh taxes and I would like to have a right to do what I want on W own property. I'm amut 300 yards this side of the Church mad. Brown: Your property is on the left coming back into town? We're not talkrI ofof closing that area. Merrill: Another proposal tout I've talked W sone of the neighbors, we 'are planning to have a meeting, they are talking about this permit thing, talking about 500 acres out there, to close W permits only. The land owners would farm a group and issue out permits for the land angers and a few of their friends and than put sous, cut possibly for a small charge. This is closing it not only for hunting but closing it for cross-country skiing, eoerohiles, taking, everybody. A lot of people on Essex street like to hunting on the Church Read, you close that and people from the Church Road Can Come over on the east aide of Essex Street to use that but we can't go over them. If you just want to keep people off the property I would just like to go along with permit only and we'll close it all year long W permit only. I'm quite sure there's about 500 acres on the east side of Eases street. Willey: As far as a notice �is.?wncerred, tat we do is we publish notices and we have no way of knowing if you sae thee or rot. We try to get than in the paper. Merrill: If masons is building a house, we get a written notice. Willey: That's a coning issue. The City doesn't have that capability. We publrsh them and post then and try to get town in the paper, which we did on this one. Ibis is nor second meeting. The earlier are we felt we needed another one because we didn't feel everyone bad notice of it. We tried W get it out again. w cent out there today. We met rase people on the road. We're just going W do our beat. This is only a cannittee meeting. We still have a full Council meeting at which you will have another Mame. So this is a at the under -level here so tier¢ is plenty of throe. We make a recommendation and than there is a Mance for the public W go before the City Council at a regular nesting ton. -4- ; I lupe they are notified. After I basked at the Church Road, I went down and called several of uy neighbors, relatives, and nobody knew aobut the meting. Willey: The City doesn't send notices. This is affecting people there wig ono Isrl and they should be notified of such a meeting. willp VA're giving you notice, giving you a chance to ane in and we will publish it the best we can. we g beyond what we lave to do. We try W get it in the paper. we are only making remsrendatiore. : I'm trying W point out that you are affecting people out there. They slauld be notified there may he restrictions put on that property. Willey; We are going to do our bast to give everyone a chance W speak. If other people want to, they can moe before us and we will make sure they get a chance. They can write or call, etc. We didn't have W hold a second meeting. woo did it W be fair W everybody. he'll told as marry meetings as Ample want. We represent. here. As far as this itan is we would like W hear tonight, tone of us are sure there is a solution, but we looked the sows over with Capt. Stockford and he explained aces of tha enforcement problem, and this is ore of our problem. I was talking W Mr. Cam ack and Mr. Burd and said it would be nice if smeh w the neighbors in this area, because I don't think it is the neighbors who are causing the pmbbaxm, I think we've get people coming in outside the area that probably don't have permission, don't know the area, don't know where the louses are and don't particular care and they are really ruining it for everybody. We don't want anyone hurt and we want to balance that against protecting people's right W hunt and do what they want on their land. That's what we are facing. Ore of the things we talked about was whether or not your neighborhood out there and if somehow you folks could kind of control that a little bit yourselves. We call it neighborhood watch in other parts of the City. I don't know if it is Wasible because there is a lot of land but if you have any thoughts on doing this we would like to hear it. The less involvanent you get Ensu City Hall, believe ue, the better off you are. Caimack: Nothing against Bangor W, W dad was a cop for 20 years in Bangor and mtired, and I have all the respect in the world for mlim;en, this past su aer there was a lady who off the road, wo called the police and they didn't even know they patroled out that way. They told my wife if was orono's jurisdiction or Canty Sheriff's. She said we pay our taxes W Bangor, what's going on. She thought the wean in the car was hurt. widentally, the waren wasn't, I want not, she lost control of the car and want off the road. They didn't even know they patroled that area. I can sea Mrs. Varney's point, she calls Bangor BB W oxre out and Mr. Stookford says it takes thus W get out there. I don't know what the solution is but I think they sbould find out whether they are supposed W be not there or Mt. I know Several who live Wt there. willev: I don't think there is any question that Capt. SWckfotd knows where his patrols are. On the haunting issue before us, why don't we try W Wt sore order into this thing, why don't we have people who have rot had a chance W speak that oppme any further restriction on expansion of Zone 1, and Zone 1 is the no fireans discharge in Bangor. An Alam in this ane you can't discharge a firearms. : Except m protect your livestock, Irne and family? } adlleyi Yea, I think you can do. Wa would like to hear fron people wTo would prefer rot to change it fmn what it 1s and than take these folks Mn want m change it. : I can't see where it would do any good to close it anymore than it is now. It's already illegal for people to go on land without written permission and as far as I know there has been no problems since last year when that was passed. I haven't see anyone. I'm over there every day and a couple of times a day. I think your suggestion of a neighborhxd watch 1s a goed idea. I'd be all for that. I'd help out. Miley: It would have to be organized. I have lived there over 40 years. Haven't had any problems. Thier: It always areas to boil down to the sake people that complains. Willey: GIIerycne has a right to vice their opinion. Tozier: of course you have to be heard but at the sans tial I think we should take a closer look at it. Why are they ®plainirg. Willey: Mat are your thoughts on what could be done shout maintaining safety for people, especially kids, around their hones, walking dogs, what are your thoughts to neutral this to mlanes is against your right to hunt on your progerty. Har do you deal with that? Tesler: I think this neighborhood organization would he no answer. evefyaa organize and report in what they find and it should be taken care of. It's up to the people tFatvselvea. The law m£orcenent can't help. if the warden service won't oye in you can't expect the eartpr oro to come in and roam the comas. It's out of the question. I've seen people in back of W place that shouldn't have been there. They ware people I hadn't seen before. I know most of my neighbors. Willey: TO you have a place out there m meet.. I knew there is a grange hall. "thing on Essex Street? : A V Hall. Willey: There's a anowrobile club on Pushaw, liars are places you could meet. Merrill: IXn this permit thing, wo were talking about deputizing a Wails of the neighbors to have them patrol the area. As far as papers on windshields, I mould just as soon do that. people could call those people with their complaints. Father than close the area I think we sheuld give this permit thing a chance m work. If you can't enforce this, and you do C1OSe the area, MW are you going to enforce nat? You can't arrest se eone just for carrying a gun. I could walk down Main Street ca Tying a gun. You're get the permit Miro through so let's work towards enforcing it. If there are syr weaknesses in this ordinance, let's strengthen than W. -6- willev: okay, there's some good thoughts : It's true if they close it they only keep out as honest people that will halp patrol it and the others will still be there. It won't stop then. : I thought we had it pretty much ironed out last year as far as pexmtta, it was mainly like xc talked about people xtp hm't terve any land out there and who don't naw any businesa being out there, hunting on other people's property, they've got no business being on. I think, like M. Merrill said, wa hawn't given it a chance to work, as far as permits, and I haven't heard myself, Ms. Varney said somthing about an archer up on the Church Road wtg got a warning, I'd like to see us gime a chance to the permit thing to see if it's going to work. My family has been out there almost 20 years, and others, etc., and I've never heard of a problem with firearms and I've never had problems with people on my property. I'd like W see the permit given a chance. I can't see closing the whole City of Es pr. I don't want to see my, rights infringed on because of ... it just exploded to the whole City. Mike Walls: I live at 322 Church Rad. I think I'm the reason the thing might nave gotten started as of last year. I certainly complained enough to Stackford. He certainly responded to my situation. I think everyone in the City knew the seriousness of it. I don't really care to be in the limelight. I'm not really against honing but at the same time I have a responsibility to my family, the sena as anyone here does. It is ivpoasible when you hear a high peered rifle A off in your back yard less than 500 ft. from your Irma to respond quietly and walk out in the scads M ask if they kraw it is restricted hunting are ICs a very unnatural thing that you suggest to do. I'm not walking up to anybody with a high powered rifle to tell them to get off my property. TM first thing he would ask is if this is my land and Mn are you to tell me to get off from it. Or can I call you, Mr. Cammack, aM have you mm® up and drive than off -Ws isn't fumy. It's serious. Cammack: I don't care. Wells: That's the problem. I see a dilemma. If you don't shut down certain areas like I'm in, which I feel is sarewnat unique, Essex street d esn't warm to have the problem that the Church Rad has. the Murch Rad is out in open field with the Muses in the woods. Hunters ones out into house areas. : don't have a complaint against Essex Street. I have an unusual situation. I better not hear any more guns going off next to my house. It's as simple as that. : If they are on your property I'd call the police. Walls: The hunting laws specifically states they can hunt within 600' of a roxksy or dwelling. So get themselves in between Grant's Musa and my Muse which are rot more then 300' apart and they have already broken the law. lbey don't even kruw that. If they are in hetween the doctor's and me, they are less than 600' apart. % That's a good argument right there to call in the warden -?- Walls: Fine, we don't have a warden. You find me a game warden this year. I'm rot giving you a light argwnent here - I'm giving you a dile:ms. It's a bad situation. Grant has been one of the most, and I wun't make a character reference to, and I'll pmt it on record, has been one of the most difficult individual I've ever met in belping an individual with this problem. I feel he has been right out in left field. He's going to Florida today. Lb you want people W get written permission from him? He could care less.. . He hoe written permission anyway — Wt me and W family. And I'm in charge of the notice. He's the land carer and he put me in charge to keep people out while he is gore. Walls: W we'll try to get it in the BCt4 as new public exceed, right, that we will have to ask you? : I doesn't do any good to ask me because they won't get it from Halls; Because of the 600' law in W particular area I think it is- imposeible to enforce on the Church Foal. : You're talking about including the uWW Church Rad, mw yw lave an area behind your house, I maybe can see closing that section, Wt you've also got an area w the other side of the road that goes to the Burleigh Rad, which is probably 3 - 4 miles, yw've people that border that on Essex Street, hut's isn't even a 1/2 mile across that field. Hilley; It doesn't make any difference. : People that border property from the Essex Street side - you're talking of closing that wWle emotion, I can see your concern, I've got children out there, I've been there 20 years and never had a pmblem. lest of your land rimers out there have never had a problem out there. You've lived out there (the Wells) for 2 years and have got a whole thing started beer. walls• 6 years. : You are talking of closing other people's pbecause you want to please yourself. Maybe behind you where they are going in through the woods there is a start span going into G1enWrn. Maybe they're talking of closing that, I don't know. Last year you talked about the Church road a l extending it, you are infringing on my rights when you are talking the atria City. Hells: You're pointing the finger again, I'm rot trying to close doam Bangor. : I'm not pointing W finger at yw. I'm saying it got expanded last year. They talked about closing one small area and than it expanded low the while City. willeXL Let's get a little control here. I kmn Ion folks want to nave intexcha ge and I don't want to disrrupt that Wt I want to keep it as calm as wo possibly can do it. Wa are all in this together. This is cur City. Mr. Walls, you still have the floor. MM Halls: I'd just like to finish. I'm not against the City of forgot in whatever they want W. But I do want it aa?yaya on the Church Road. I believe if we are ging to have people policing the road, helping as eliminating the hunting situation, make yourself known because I'd like a friend right about now as far as that law is concerned. My phone-huker is 942-3111 and I'll help you out anytime you need mc. Walls: That 'a exaggerating but just the seems I really want to get this across Nat if we are going to form this we are ging to he out there at 5 in the morning and we are going to be out there at 9 at night because I've had problems at Wth times. Wilms On behalf of the Council, sued I'm rot going to speak for the Captain, but before anyone does ary,thig here I want Capt. Steckford's input and we must rot under any circumstances take the situation into our own hands out of a stressful situation, shall we say. If Stookford feels it is n everyone's best interest to enlist the help of same citizens, leave it to his expertise to direct that. I'm rot going to characterize how these things can get out of hand hot please let's net get into that. Wa are doing this on a planned approach. we haven't gotten to hunting season. we are trying to Co this calmly and openly so let's be careful. I would hefore others have a chance like to hear from Stockford ren thoughts he has on (1) the whale issue of enforcement, the ability from a amen scree approach, is it enforceable as it exists now and (2) what are your thoughts regarding the issues of neighbors beconi g involved in the helping the Barger police and if it is feasible what kind of restrictions world you like to see placed in this regard. These are two important questions that I wuld like to hear fan you M. Steckford: The enforceability issue is hard to address. Despite what might hove happened with one phone call, I won't argue the point that '22i and we all knew that. We are omitted to responding for any call for service anywhere in the City and in fact is illegal for us rot to respond. 48 get there as quickly as we can. Sometbrea we have to prioritize calla, the lines busy, sometimes we are six miles away and we have to say wait a few minutes. Any question of enforceability, the less exceptions to the rule the easier it is to enforce it. A flat rule of no hunting or no shooting is a lot easier to enforce than shooting up to a line on a map, no shearing on ore side and rot the other. when we get out in the woods at 2 in the morning or this time of night when it's dark, we don't have these maps, aren't sure of lines, etc. It is very difficult to enforce a hunting or trespassing law particularly, and W. walls a very good point, when the person you are enforcing the law, upon is amed. I don't take that lightly at all. An armed Monter, as far as I'm concerned, is just another armed person and my officers are going to approach him with a great deal of caution as I suspect any of you people wale do. Enforceability - 1t is a difficult rule to enforce. when I hear a gunshot as I'm driving along I have he way of telling Mw far away it is. Unless I can g into the woods, find the hunter, ask him for what amounts to a confession on the spot, I certainly don't Mme a prosecutable case. I can't go before a judge and say I think he violated the law of being with 600' of a toad. I'm Out alloyed to do that. The beat and rest easily enforceable issue that you peple have brought up is posting of the private property. If I was a person standing On property that I knew is posted that's prime evidence he has broker the law. If he doesn't have written permission in his pocket, he has broken the law. It's difficult because if it seas my crosier coring, he steps back into the bushes, I'm going to drive by and net see him. -9- Hopefully he will have a car sitting there somewhere. Willey: They do drop hunters off. We've heard that. Can we let Stockford finish? Stockfoed: 'Ciro enforceability is difficult at best and all I can tell you !;—w will do our beat to respondto any call for assistance in any way we can. low second thing - the neighborhood watch that has started in the old Capetart section is working well but that didn't fiwrer overnight. A lot of months and hard effort want into that program W get it going. They are dealing with neighbors who can sea their neighbor's Muse. Hoa effective it would be on church Mad, I don't know. But I would certainly lend my support to investigating the matter because I think it is an option and I don't think we can afford to overlook any option. As far as the deputized people, I have to submit that to the City Solicitor. I don't believe the City has a program of part-time officers, deputies, etc. It was brought up at a meeting hot were leaning more towards the Sheriff's Dept. Stockfoolt share is not a strict jurisdiction of rule there but by aha large the sheriff has his deputies pretty well c. Witted and doesn't brine then into organized twnehips or cities because he relies on the law efforcessent there to take care of it. It is certainly Worth looking at. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I doubt very seriously that re: timing Willey: We are also talking about the read for your proper training and attitude as these things are done professionally and appropriately. SWckford; Hat's why we spent the time with the Capehart session. We met with Hnee people aha gave than what amounted to police training to give them the ability W mesh with our system so that Otey can he helpful to us rather than confusing the issue. (a lady): But were you dealing with arms? Stockford: Yes, we got a fair asount of gunshot calls in that section of the city Willey: People out there do not confront people. They call in W the Police Impartment. These people are very well trained. You don't want people contronting people with a weepon. Stcckfcrd: Right off the top of my head I can't in any way, the best you ceuld aspect is some sort of organized call-in system. I see someone trespassing on my neighbors land, they aren't home so I'm calling in for time, I'll try W. get a license plate number, try W keep track of where they Went. But W ask a citizen of Bangor to wn£ront someone who is breaking the law - there is no way I could support that. Commack: I can we your point of confronting someone with a gun but I've seen cars cut there like Mr. Merrill was talking. about - cars early in the morning aha at night on the Church Road. I know those people don't live out there. They are coming out, parking cars on private property -Mather they have permission or not I don't know. let people get the license plate number and call into Bangor M. Dien Stockford: It's not illegal to park your car on Church Road and walk into the :mods unless you are on pasted property. Cazvack; It's all posted. willey: He's talking about trespassing - that is his point. The other Mint that Capt. Stockfordl keeps indicating is who is it that put tin car there, the owner, a friend, or who. Stockford: You've got to see the person breaking the law, son than wall enough to identify than. So to call you is virtually useless? StockfonJ: No, by all means, cell us. But I'm saying for us to end up in a position where we can make a physical arrest, everything has to ... So W. Walls or myself can go up there but don't go up to the man wrtli tln gun and maybe sit there in the car and you can identify the guy. You can call me dam and I'll watch too. : I can only speak that I lured there last year. I rented Mr. Grant's hone and we did have a difficult time with the hunters. I knew I spoke with W. Brown several times and we lave called the police, they were very good in caning out. I had a 4 year old boy al I didn't care to have him out when it got rear dark. Several tines we heard gun shots late at night and early in the morning. On three oocesions vehicles blocked the driveway and we couldn't get in or out. Ore night the drimway was blocked, it was dark, my husband got out of the car and heard a gun shot and could hear them talking and laughing. I called the folies, they came, there ware several of then that were small and a number of arms in their vehicle. The ganis warden had to core, the sheriff came, and this happened several times so I think there is a problem out there. Two different times hunters want across the front lawn with gun. I'm rot speaking against hunters. If I ware outside with my son, it's frightening. : Mean this hunting incident took place at 11 in the morning, I was a work and was 15 minutes away. My wife didn't know what to do. She and my 6 }rear old were ata ling in the driveway waiting for the school bus when a shot was heard. These clowns; were less than 300' away. This is not: a great deal of distance for a high powered rifle. It is certainly killing distance. WilleV; Ode thing mentioned earlier and at the last meeting one of the Nuncllore Iron Veazie, Ray Lynch, was here and Ray mentioned that I think they have limited firearms to shotguns in veszie. I'm wondering what the people feel abut the type of weapon that is used. J_ anyone still shouldn't be shooting at a house. Willey: I'm talking alnut another restriction. I know a lot of cities and states are going it. I'm wOm ering if there are certain areas where we sMuld he thinking strut what kind of weapons we used. We haven't really talked about that. If you can't enforce corebody off a trespass line you sure can't enforce a shotgun. -11- - Willey: Here's one of the things that cane up today. Soon of the people out in the Street area were very concerned that their personal property rights would somehow be infringes upon, their right to hunt on their property. Forget the third party. Hut you the property But at the same time you have a next door wighboNuod that has a little different problem. How do you deal with that and taw do you deal with it an that it makes some moron sense for the police enforcement. Maybe you need an interim sone where we really db restrict non-ooner type people from using property. I'd like to get some feedback. That's what we are trying to do today. We've heard a lot mare today but I don't know that we've acasplishx] soh. ]ori Varney: I live on Church Road, one big thing I think we, tend to overlook here is the element of risk and safety - that's the bottom lire - the safety of just a school bus going down a road, 4 times a day, going into yards, purple when walk, jog, etc., the thing is we are like a little secluded area up there and that's where the problem is caning in because ttay drive don there and go into the words an] we don't know where they are. %s just hear the shots. fortunately you don't have to he bothered with that, Mr. Hurd or Mr. Cammack or Mr. Merrill, because people aren't going to park in front of your house on Essex Street. : My kids ride on the has that ¢cases Church Road. Vim: The thing is we're in the middle of a shooting some. ware but just one sole of Church Road. We're having iscriss-cross road, the Johnsons, the Gz@mmus, the Cohens, us, we'rejusthavingaaproblem with keeping then off our lani. It's rot safe to walk on aur lend, we can't enjoy our laud that time of year because it's but safe. I've been harrassed se much by bunters in saying that I have no right to be in the woes because it's the beaters wows, it's gotten to a point we need a change. I feel no bad because unfortunately you're so used to being able to have the rights to hunt on your land, luckily you still have the land you can, we're just talking about our own land. It's bare for a Change out there before something drastic happens. I'm ret trying to be dramatic. I'm just stating a fact net if you are upset because you can't core on to Church load and hunt ... : We don't want to heat on your land. You have it postal. it's just Mr. Grant's land w are talking about here. Willey: It appears that volt of the oeners an the Church Road haven't given pavussion to anyone to hunt on their property and it also appears that other than you on Mr. G ant's property that me one else has permission so it's only the owners and you basically am a caretaker. It appears to me there are people who only have some kind of rnmerehip interest that are hunting on the Church Road anyway. 'ro it appears to ma that if there is any hunting it's probably not been autharized. Sullivan: Before you get carried away on that, my neighbor owns property all through that land. now I've crossed over a got my neighbor's permission to go across there am] hunt the property. On the Church Road there are outsiders amino in but you've get people living on Essex Street that ... (Willey reviewed the map area) -12 - Willey: Stnckfotd had a thought about the Judson Heights area. I hadn't realize how expanded the trailer park area is. It appears that those trailers go way into that area and over the zone line. That middle strip is this (shwa on map) so the guestion is roes it boil down to that, we viewed it, I don't kmw what the distances are. Wire not trying to be personal about this, I feel bad that you people invited out there, but it's really a matter of safety now. It's not just hunting. People in our family Icon. We've always hunted. But it's not safe any more, One injury ... : You could say that ahcut the whole state of Heins. : You could but we could prevent it by a small piece of land because there is so much traffic out there. : There's not that much traffic. Besides it is illegal to shoot across the road. : I know but it is still being done, air. Willey: Just so we don't continue, without intending to cut you off, we've heard, I understand your point. I think at this point - is there anyone here who taen't had a chance W speak Nat really has a thought either way. There is m easy solution, we've got M make the hard choice. Pat When: I live on Church R i. I was at the last meeting. My Muse hacks up to Ne woods, my barn is in fe middle of the field, and there are woods on the other side of my lam. The deer cross hetween my tarn and my Muse so I expect the hunters following behind than. Today when I went hone at noon time there was a funeral at the cemetery, a hunter parked with his red cap and jacket and gory by the time I got M mry Mme I was behind a school bus m I'm real concerned for the safety of people on tM Church Road. I'm sorry M he offending the hunters because it is beautiful land but I want to M able to feel safe to W W my ham and want children to he safe in getting on and off school busses. W. Cohen: One of the clings discussed last year was just banning hunting on the Church Road and for sone reason it got expanded. Why can't We W back to that premise because it sears to be the area problem. A majority of people on Church Road don't want hunting. Why can't just that Road M banned and the other area remain the same. Willey: The proposal now is to have the zone go up to the intersection of Pmnew and Church, W up Church road to the intersection of Clurch and Essex, and just down Essex to where it masts at the Burleigh. It is rot M affect anything east of Hamm or north or west of Church or Pushsw or any of those areas. (Showed a map). ; That is defeating the purpose. The people that are Mrs that want to close the area to hooting live on the opposite side of that line. willev; But ny point is it goes on the meth side of Church road. : But Hr. Walls lives on the opposite aide of that and he is talking aMut a gun fired that tock piece on his aide of the Church Road. willev: It will be everything on the inside of this. It goes on the other side of CMrch Road - 100 yards. _I} Willey: I d n't knew what we are going to reaamnend. let's take two scenarios. Let's say we leave it the way it is. We don't gain anything, we've all met and had a lot of discussion. What happens during Ho,aaher? W we let it CO by and ne W. Merrill suggested let it run its course for a year and see what happens. The other plan is let it run its course and maybe get sake mighbors inwlved have with a quiet peaceful reporting system developed with Capt. Stockfond, can that be developed that quickly before the hunting Season, I have my doubts. But I think I'd like to see you folks meet with Capt. S[ockfond and try to develop Met for another year. I think all of us get excited, rot just you, we all do, with issues Chet are emotional with our families and I would hate to saw in the Spirit Of trying th help a mighbor and he" arson get hurt. It would have to be well trained and monitored. It's erose of mry rosiness beyond that. The other way is to try this method we've outlined on the Church Road. It is going to imoact you Don m going out under this scererio on the westerly side of Essex between Essex and Pushaw. (tape changed) You're talking about drawing the line 100 yards, the north sideof Ctwrch Road, M is anyone going to be arcing through the weeds through that, I knew a lot of hunters come through that back side to Jim BPyles lard, through the gravel pit, else Stockford noted that you hear a shot, haw can you tell if it is 100 yards. Varney :: People understand •m" a lot better Man why you can if do this and If you do at, if it IS •m" people shun away fern that a lot th It's easier to enforce no hunting. I've had Man tell me Bill Varney gave than permission and I knew that's net right. Merrill : Did he have written permission? Is she to go up to an armed man and asked for written. penmrsslm? Willey: Let's wait a around here. The other option is to go Nis route and try Nis wit1h ut any neighborlmd group or with a neighhorhood group. Again, I say the neighhorhood group we should wait on until as get more organized. Those are the optlons I was. Merrill: When you passed this ordinan a it wasn't passed until after hunting seaaon last year. So now, hunting season is here again sed you haven't even tried this law to see if it works. You're giving up on the ordinance before you even try it. Barney: It Mani worked during hind season. I do want to say this Me problan is ... Merrill: I'm just saying we should give this ordinance a chance to work. Beef up patrols in the area. -14 - Varney: You said get the number and call the person the next day. That Larsen doesn't have to say anything if the police calls thes. If the police called me and said they had a car registered to me that Draw on Somerset Street last night, what were you doing there, I'd say it's done of your business. You probably would respond but must Of the people who ovine to the Church lid would not. Tl is the problem. I have gone up to I het 30 armed men last year until my husband stopped me. They were so rude to me. It was like I was asking them to cut Off their leg. W9mt about the tams we ip pay in tCity between the business and the house we own, we pay a lot of tams and I couldn't even walk my dog tndaY. You talk about people's right. I SCE�� have a right to walk Wroad any time of the year like people on Same sat Street have a right to walk dam their sidewalk. M =ill: It's not a matter of people Saying'you haven't get any rights. Varese: well I don't have any rights, let 'a face it. Merrill: I'm just bringing up last year, It started out the same way, The wanted to shut hunting dorm and and expanded it to the whole city both tines. Varrev: Wa don't want to tele city. Mr, Willey, When I spoke here last week tut did I say? I was interested in the Church Road, right. Willey: That's what you said. Varney_ The people on ESSax street don't have a problem which it just SO happens we aren't quite populated enough. we all Own quite a bit of property therefore it is mu easy for a person W enter the weeds and we don 't knew it So what happens. I W by the leash law, I one 30 acres of lad, I have a huge german Shephard that I aave to keep peed up, eM with 30 acres of land I feel I shpuld let him run but that's act Cha city ordinance do I keep him penned W. I run him twice a day. I go down in my field. I don't knew if amame is in there. Law weak ay husband found Someone in the Owner of the field with a how and arrow. Whit if i were there with my dog? You knew what It's like - hese you ever had Luck fever? You're a hwf2r. You knew. That's what happens. Hunters shpt at anything. Merrill: I'm not saying You shouldn't have any rights as far as no huntig, I'm net saying Varney: That's all We're asking for. Can I just finish? Merrill: It came UP the same way last year, Mrs. Varney, they wanted to slut don hunting on Church %ad, that's the WsY it started again this year, and it expanded to the whole city. The only remsen I'm here is because I want ay rights, I knew you want yours as far as no hunting but I want to keep my rights ... V,a�: You're saying no hunting, I don't care, tenting has nothing to do with it. If they we out there with guns I don't knew wet the purpoee is, I don't want than on MY 1" with a gun - that's what I'm against. I'm talking strictly for safety. I've been on the Church Road for 18 years, ore Of the oldest residents on that Road. Won I mused there it was a dirt read that was in such poor condition it was closed for two weeks every spring. -15 Varney: We nomad there because my husband is an avid hunter, my family has hunted the Church good, but it has gotten to the point where it is not safe to hunt there any more - whether it's my family or whoever - it is not safe. The %ad is tarred now, many school busses, mare people who live at Pushes year around. The whole city has changed. Is Broadway the smite as it was 18 years ago. Is the Hogan Road the sate? No, we are changing and we -me got to change with it. It is inevitable that this is going to happen. With Bud Grant building the way he is in the trailer park, with all the building, it's Just a matter of time that this is going to happen anyway. So why not have it know before there is an accident. That's all I'm pleading for. Merrill: I'm not saying, I don't care if the*lose the auction in between, I know people who hunt there. I don't anymore. I want it on cord that I'm not disagreeing with you. My point is last year end he time before that it care up for the Church M. being closed to no hunting. It expanded both times W he whole area. I'm not saying you did that. I want to make sure if you can promise me right now or W. Willey or the Council that you're not going W close the other side of Bssex Street over there then I'll leave and ycu can have your W hunting. Verney: I agree with you. Walls: The best suggestion after all this discussion and feelings are going -Wreally rise as things <F on, especially when you get into hunting season, I own a pp super, Capt. Stockford, and I fully intend to put a seven muni clip in ny pocket and a gun in the offer hand if I have W approach svrebody.. Mr. Walls, you're talking crazy now, Varney: That's what we've lived in, a crazy place cut there. Walls: The most st productive recmmuen ation that's been made here is that peopin as the land hunt on the land. the people that don't stay off the land and keep it open for hunting for the land owner themselves. Let's try to do that. Walls: Capt. StockforH has the right to take an officer out there and any you are breaking the law because you don't ono this land. I'll W so far as W make up a list of every land owner an that road and personally present than the letter. How has Capt. Stockford enforce that? They have to have written permission. Varney: %Arae going to police it on Saturday when they all hit there. Half of than will be dropped off. I'm going W call Capt. Stockford and tell him there are shots going around me. Ghat am yon going W do about it Capt. Stockford? Stockford: I'll came out, put these notices on cars, and try to locate the hunter. 14 at I'm rot going W do with my blue uniform is walk in the woods. I don't expect my people to do that. -16- : Even if it's closed the police won't g into the woods. Stookford: Yes we would. I want to make this point. If we have a situation where maybe you can hunt and maybe you can't depending on what's in your pocket for a piece of paper. You're right I'm roc going to send an officer into an area where they are shooting W check a place of paper, but if I knew there is m hunting allowed and the very fact that a gun went off in there means there is a clear cut criminal violation no if ands or buts about it, you'd better believe I'll find the guy in that weds. It might be Wits a job and chances are I vault find them all but I'll certainly put a let more effort into it. I can justify more manpver when I knew that there nal violation than I can when maybe Nem is a criminal violation. x have six police officers on any given shift to cover this city and to send ona officer out there sitting in a car on a chance that maybe a city Ordinance has been violated, I just can't justify that.. Verney: It's like the off icer the other night, he had to sit there and wait for the fellow to mm Out of the wads. Stockford: If he had had an erergency, call someplace else he would have left. Mayioe you ought W make a few examples for people to catch on. Wily If anyons does get caught, it is our remmenaation that person be prosecuted. We're got W wrap this up. My other thoughts or suggestions W the owners W far as carrying weapons and confronting purple. Stockford: I get paid to do that, and I don't like W do it. I don't reoxmend cenfmnting any armed people. Keep calling us and we will keep di responng, w'llte'ont them eWryt me W possibly can. I still feel right mw the way the law is written that the criminal trespass law is the strongest tool you ham W work with, you people who own property Out there. Is it conceivable for a thirty day period W have an officer wt Nem ... StOckfocd: We MW discussed with the City Manager dedicating Name patrol time there. It's a budget issue. Wa MW discussed it. : There's only about three people there who want no hunting, why don't they now into a no hunting zone. That would solve problems. Varney: Them are five families. : Maybe three or four of us should go out there on Saturday W patrol t:e area. 4 USN I don't have the time. Stockford: Quite frankly, you don't Mm the authority. Cammack: If we see someone, W call the M and MW them ttme out. Stockford: By all means. Tbat's the ore thing that has been said that W can deal with. The more eyes and ears the quicker and mom often we can be there end making the exmple of it, as was just mentioned. -1?- VarmqBut is it still safe for me to walk ny dog,that's the issue It's a very small sacrifice W have that area no hunting for pnblrc safety. Mrs. CanmecM I just have a oament, I mu a no -hunter, anxl I hate it. We have lived on Essex Street for 3 years, my in-laws for amoral 20 years, I have small children and animals. We have had people drive in our driveway aho arouM our barn and into the woods. I think the whole problem is enforcement. Why would the police ar wardens who enforce these laws be out these for 30 days in November when they aren't for the other 11 months. My point is the first two summers I was out there I called the police on an average of at least twice a day, because my children who won't play in the mad, I'm scared to cross the street to get my mail. There's ne enforcement period. Hunting, speeding, drunk riving, etc. From Memorial Day W labor Day we're talking pa,ple driving 80-90 mph. I called the police dept, they can park in ay driveway, I'll feed you meals, we have no patrol period. There are probably five officers, minimum, that live on Essex street, three of than less flan a mile away from my house and we never them am p by. Wmn you multiply the number of cars against one gun it ends up being just as dangerous. It's a natter of patrol. I'm not against the police. Willey: Myene else before we close? Vardmmis: I visit my daughter out on Church hoed and I think it would be nice Eor people out there W be able to walk in safety. People deserve to have an area. Walls: Capt. Stockford, if we go out there after hearing a gun shot, we get a license plate anM confront a hunter and tell him he is not supposed to be there, what right W we have as citizens? Stckford: I'm not really qualified W answer that question to the extent Mat it might keep you from heing sued or killed. I don't want that responsibility. You have the right W protect your oro laho, the life of your family, You do have property protection rights, hot you really need to talk W a prosecuting attorney W know exactly what Mose rights are. I really don't feel qualified W lay it out to you off the top of W head. Walls, I have to suggest had my wife or daughter bean shot last year, wourAed or otherwise, fatally maybe that there would have been nothing I could have done. I don't feel it's exaggerated. I bet these people would have gotten off with a very short sentence because it was a simply hunting accident. Ignorance is no sxcuse of the law but enforcing wrong that many law bmakers I think you've pt yawmalf a very touchy problem. : Let's enforce criminal trespass, put It in the paper. News will get around that soceoe paid a fine for hunting ... Willey: I think what Capt. Stockford W saying is let the police do the enforcement. let's try to work together, if you see somoone try to get an identify, you can act as a witness, get the license number, but I think what he is saying don't you be the confronter, let the police do that. If this Problem is ping on, it will work. Let's be cautious. -3H - �F�/p I would like to make a suggestion Nat they beef up patrol nt Road ad this Saturday and Monday and Tuesday, put these notices ' f notify the people. Once they age the patrol car and they get apprcadmd I think it will cut down. They will be afraid of a fine. verses: What about a car parked - can that be trespassing? 6tcckf¢d: Yes, it is. It's a mall point. The city has no authority w reguu al to hunting, we can regulate trespass, the discharge of firearms, hot if a fellow is not trespassing, not if he is in zone 2. He has to have permission. He isn't violating hunting. Willey: A Claes E fine is up to 6 months and up to $500.00. salve got to close this. Brom: I've looked at Nese areas twice now. To me there aren't many places where you have the required 600 ft. I do rot recall when we changed things last year that we changed the lines. I really think that the lines have got tc change. It appears to me it might include Church Road. I want to know from the hunters is what are the areas this side between Church and Burleigh and Essex and Broadway where you can hunt. Varney: How about just talking to M. Grant or W. Hurd and W. Tozier'a land... Nat's who is involved. Ware talking about the 600 ft. ; No there are others. Brown: We never moved the line. (tape cbanged) Varsev; Bangor isn't going to make a change until there is a fatality ard the Council is the ones who will have to live with that. I'm all cone. Nell be back here again next year. Varney: No, love had it. Willey; I appreciate you ming. We are ging to make a recommendation W the Council. We'll make sure it gets in the paper. ink for it. Tilley; M did g through this last year and we core up with somethingwe re gug to try. It hasn't been tried yet. if these people will get out there and try to keep the people out of the woods who don't belong there by getting numbers, reporting it to the police, it won't take long. before they are picked up, arrested and find before they will learn. wa haven't tried to ordinance s it row exists end we don't have any good reason w change it until it has been tried. Willer He have a meeting coming up in the middle of hunting season. Maybe we monitor it very closely over the next SO days or so and Nen we most with Stockford to see what he says. Tilley: Yes, I think people who want N keep hunting on chair own Property I think the key is up to you. If you don't a crce it than there is going 0 be no hunting. -19 - Wilms The meeting is Moverber 13th, Wednesday. Our next Council meeting. I think it is only fair and reasaable that it be monitored until then. The neighbors have indicated they will do so. let's give the existing oribumi,lMr a chance. I suggest W. CamMr. eck� . walls, Mr. Merrill, Mrs. Varney, Tori, Me Cohen, Mr. Tosier, why don't you take the lead on trying to keep track of it with Mr. Btockford. Brown: I want to say I think we could charge the linea. I think you Mve a bunt up section act I don't know that we can even by following, if we passed amathing on the 13th it wouldn't F into effect until the 33rd. I'm convinced the built up sections would justify it. We didn't move the lines last year. Vaxmy: We have taken the lead. M you used a tragedy. Wilms Re Council will meet the 13th of November and we'll have a track record then.