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Home My WebLink About1998-04-21 Municipal Operations Committee MinutesMunicipal Operations Committee Meeting Murms April 21, 1999 at 6:00 p.rn Councilors Attending: Michael Aube, Michael Crowley, Nchi Farnham, Gerry Palmer, Tim Woodwckr Tyler StaffAvendiog: Ed Barrm, Erik Stumphal Others Attending: Wayne Foote, Item, Cormier, 1. Request for Release of a Portion ofLafayme Street Erik explained to the Committee that Mr. sed Mrs. Strom are owners of property adjacent to the City of Bangor's Little City Park and between their property and the park is a 50 foot rigluofwaythatwaslegallydiscentio ml965. The City has been occupying that portion of the right of way as an addition to the park The Strout's have asked that the southerly half of that right ofway be released to them so that they can maintain a ditch area that is not being adequately maintained at present. Staff bas looked at City records, and as a matter of law, the Strouts are the owners of the fee title to this right of way to the center line. The City probably has a claw to title by adverse possession since the fidl right of way has been occupied in addition to the City Park for at least 20 years. Erik's recommendation is to approve the request. The Engineering Department and Parks and Ree have gone out and looked m dw right ofway. It does not wpact the testis courts or other structures within the park area and the renovmrendefiov froontose departments is to grant the request. Approved recommendation. 2. Pat's Bike Shop Bicycle Rodes Erik explored that for the part seveial years Pat's Bike Shop and the Bangor Police Athletic League have co-sponsored a bike race. Recently, Pat's Bike Shop has decided W sponsor this race by themselves and this request's before Committee to give thea permission to do so. Troy Deaq Vice President of Pat's Bike Shop explained [hat they have had races in the past at the Essex Street fteilityin conjunction with PAL. This you they would like to do thein ow mower theold Bangor dump on the Kithidge Road. There areaheady trails there that only need to be cleaned up. They would like a race with anew setup. Pat's is looking for a loco] chanty det may not be represented well and needs the money. The profits will Bounce the race, purchase prizes and food & drink for the rocas. Chief Harriman commented that PAL is a community nm organization in which Bangor Police otEcem help M. PAL started a moment bike racing series two years ago. There are three races that are hold annually andhist year ora of those races was the NOMA sanctioned race. Due is the biggest many maker of the dace races for the PAL and Pat's Bike Shop has Inimically helped out PAL with the avant. This year the letters that went out to all the mu sponsors specifically stated that this would be a NOMA sanctioned event for a PAL bike race and this was what it was intended to be. At some point, Pat's Bike Shop decided they no longer wanted it to be held in conjunction with PAL, that they warned to do A on their own and the Police Department and PAL suspected the reason was for the amount of money thatthe bike ice generated. Msrepremmalomofapprov ately$2,000ayearto PAt and itwiUmfiriicantlytake away fromthe othermcesthmthey hold. Becemethishasbcen held on City property, Bandy felt it was appropriate that it come before this Committee and that it be brought to the Council's attention because this is a race rest has raised money for PAL in years past and is being changed unilaterally. Councilor Crowley asked if given the fact that soave of the businesses that have been comamed were given the impression that the proceeds would go to the PAL, if the license were not granted to Paz's Bike Shop, is there some way that this race would take place to benefit PAL? Chief Harman explained that Pat's has already received the Rome from NORBA to hold this race. Mr Dean responded that the original intent was to have a 3-series race with PAL. Pat's has dove the races and PAL has been the recipient of the proceeds. One major issue with PAL was how the race could be done? Mr. Dean explained that he informed Officer White that anything that comes in for prizes from the letters that were seat out, approximately 75-100 letters, would be given to PAL for their own race. The money from Pat's ice will go for that own prizes and back into thea race. Mr. Dean told Officer White that if they needed help putting the nice together, he would be happy to help. Councilor Aube asked whose signature was on the letter that went out? Mr. Dem explanted that it was on City letterhead with his signature. Councilor Aube asked if at that time, had it ban planned then Pa's Bice Slop would ran the race with PAs? Mr. Dean answered yes. Councilor Aube asked at what point in time was it decided not to do this? Mr Dean explained that the deciding factor for Pat's was when Mr. Deers warned to do professional timing at a con of $300. When it was mentioned, he was told"no", it would cost too much money. Mr. Dean pointed out Naz any NORMA sanctioned race in Maine is professionally timed. Councilor Aube asked how much money is generated through the race? Mr. Dem explained the nm is epprozmatety $lOW-$1200. Councilor Aube asked if in prior years was duxeevaarry room leasing the land? Mr.Demansweredno. The City domed the land. City Maraga Pd Barratt commented that there is a City policy relating to use of City property which does make a distinction between non-profit and for-profs events. The policy encourages the use of City property for non-profit events. Normally there is not a charge associated with non-profit use of City property other than to cover expenses that may be incurred. There are nolverymemy eventsthatwe City properryforprofit spomsoredbya profit-making organization. The Policy does art preclude the use of City property for commercial purposes but it does not specifically encourege. The City can charge a fee. There will potentially be some expeues associated with the event on City property for which the Cry, shail4a a comment, remover the mats. The City does reluue insurance, clean up, etc. Ed suggests that the Council urge any race sponsor, ffthis is approved, to come up with a different name for the event because that is not the image for that area that the City is trying to portray and it misrepresents what the City is attempting to do in that part of our community, Chief Harriman commemed that he feels On whole issue from the PAL's pour of view is that they have put a great deal of time and money into this race in preparing the worse that has been uadmorully used for it and now, without any input form there, the ram has been taken from Nemandisbeingusedoafor-profitever. hwas done in such amawsthat PAI, felt like r was stolen fimm them without Nem having an opportunityW try and work with Pat's Blce Shop. According to the notes from the PAL officers on March 10, they were contacted and told that Pa's Bike Shop wanted to be paid for putting this rete on. They took it under advisement, responded aweeklater, and said they would be willing to split it 50/50. Atthat point, they were told got it was already decided that Pat's would do the moss themselves. In checking with Dale Themouit, 2 weeks prior Pat's Bike Shop approached the PAL officers and stated that they warted to be paid for it and had already submitted their application to hold the race there as Pat's race and not as PAL's race. Mr. Dean commended that the reason they talked with Paul White about splitting the pro&s was because they wanted to put money, beck into the race. Pat's did wt wawa Dale Themoth until after Office White called. Councilor Crowley conanented that he feels uncomfortable about communication being malty our on City letterhead about an event that has changed since the letter was seat. The ¢vest appeared to sponsor a City program. He feels that the differences should be overcome and the original plan be restored m that the liner is not misrepresentation because it is the Cry's image that is at risk, not Pat's Bike Shop. Aft.. Dem pointed out that the letter that was maled out was under the PAWEssex Street Challenge, which PAL can still have. The prizes coming in as a result of that letter me going m PAL. Councilor Aube feels that procedures should have been followed when eliminating the parmersNp. There seems to have been some collusion Councilor Aube asked if there is coy possibility, for this year in particular, that the process be put together and agree to the procedure w how to deal with it most year, Mr. Dean agreed that they would sit down and discuss the issues that they have. Councilor Crowley commented than the charity is PAE and it will benefit from the race, but than the expert on mearg; the race is Pat's and they should run the race they way they want. Councilor Woodcock feels than there are two interests that are not completely compatible. Paz's interest is to have a race that wdl continue to grow and benefit the charitable purpose of PAL. It seems that they are reaching a point in the road where events will draw them spare 'There is the impression that this has been a fairly abrupt tum and urges that if there is a way to accommodate each other for this year and to take into account some of the bike shop's concerns that they have a race that meets then criteria and possibly sets the stage for them doing A on dow own nen year and also Pat's recognizing than they have put PAL in a diScult position by pulling the plug this year that both groups work toward this. Chief Harriman commented that if it is acceptable to all the parties involved be would be willing to facilitate discussions between the two groups. Mr. Dean commented that they would discuss it and he them know. - Councilor Crowley recommended approval that it remain a non -pro& event with funds designated to PAL and some consideration given to the name change. Councilor Woodcock commented that though he medicament where Pat's is coming from, there should be a way of approaching this in away that thew goal can be reached and at the same time have PAL benefit from the race. In order to be fan to Pat's, the PAL may be willing to dimirdsh, to some extant, its take, provided than Pat's would be representing that Us would be put back into the race. ChiefHmrimen doesn't think that this is a problem. B knows PAL is not looking to get all. the proceeds from this and they recognize there are issues here as well. Randy asked Sri= issue could be tabled urail father discussionswere held? The Committeeagreedtotablethe issue for two weeks. 3. Adult Entertaimnern The transcript is available separately in the City Manager's Office. Municipal Operations Committee Meeting -April 21, 1998 Councilors Attending: Michael Aube, Michael Crowley, Nichi Features, Gerry Palmer, Tim Woodcock, Ran Tyler. Staff Attending: Edward BameL Erik Stumpfel Others Amending: Wayne Foote, Dime Cormier, Patricia Mooney, Michael Rumn, Dave Melochick, Carol Sherman, Rick Bowden, k 3. Adult Entertaimnent Councilor Aube: For those in the audience who may want to participate in this discussion bought, again, we ask you to please come up to the mic, indicate your name and where you live so that it will be pact of the record. Let me also say to my fellow Councilors, on the Committee in particular, Nat it is our hope that we are able to put forth a recouuneadation to the Council out of this meeting tonight. There are two items for us to consider and Noes as the remaining items with respect to the regulatory ordinance which would deal with how the business is regulated within the confines of the City of Bangor or the second item which is that the public indmency ordinance, which would be to choose that as an option for recommendation to the full Council. Let me also say that we are scheduled, Use is a Planning Board Hearing in Nis Chamber tonight at 7:00 pm an we will try to make use of theremaimig33mmaksthebes[wears. Ifweneedto...(fape ended). Let me also say that I think part of the record, I don't know the number and I suspect City staff may have, Couachors, we have all beat receiving dozens and domns of letters on Nis matter and I think Nat ought to he pert of the record. I don't know, Erik, if you know that numheYl City Solicitor: They are part of the record, at least I've been keeping copies of than as they have been sent down by the Manages office. I can get you a number shortly. I do have it on file and will take a look while we me here. Councilor Aube: not would be helpful because I knows have received probably a least 15 in the last four or five days. Let me also, I've been asked by a member of our community to include; as pert of the record, "cmp.,es 'r'M1'nly Ve led", which was on natural public radio. We bnveboth the tape and also the transcription ofthat, which basically talks about the concerns ofpeople who are performers in Nese establishments in terms of the fear and apprehension that they have as individuals, so Nis is from a national perspective but obviously could have some impact on us here. With that as the caveats for our discussion, let me open it up for discussion to the Committee. Would you want to proceed with the regulatory ordinance or do we want to proceed with the outright prohibition? City Manager Ed Barrett We have got one graphic we would like to show you regarding the areas that were identified under the proposed noting for the regulatory ordinance and we that went and tried to mark off 500' limits on various areas where they could not be located within 500'. Erik can walk you through i; City Sohcimc You certainly on take a look at it tnq as you should. Councilor Aube: Why don't we complete the regulatory portion discussions and than Intend. City Solicitor: Regarding the map. The rasp that is up on the board next to you is the same map that the Committee looked at last time. The areas shown th red are those zones in the City where nude dance atablishmmts would still be Introduced to locate under the proposed regulatory ordinance and what John Inrd's office has done is to prepare an overlay on that which draws a 509 radius around all schools, establishments licensed for on premises sale of alcohol, churches and others on the list of locations that would be protected under the draft ordinance. What you can see is that when you superimpose those locations on the zone areas, essentially what you have done is eliminated the small area on Broadway where such establishments otherwise would have been allowed to be located. You have eliminated most of me downtown area with the exception of the Bangor waterfront, however you have left extensive areas in the Stillwater/Hogan Road area, a smaller area on both sides of Union Street in the vicinity of the Airport and a fairly substantial area on the Hammond StreeUBulge area where such establishments still would be permitted to locate. I would suggest that each ofthe Committee membersgo up and take a look at the mapjust so you get a better idea of how that's impacted by those menstrual requirements. Ed Barton; As a follow up to the ember comment, we have in our file, 35 expressions of opinion on this subject; 13 from our of town individuals and 22 from residents of the community. Councilor Aube: Why don't we take a minute to look at that. If anyone else would like to we it... [Committee members review map] City Solicitor: III may Mr. Chair offer two fiuthercomments about the map. Whatwehave marked in temps of alcohol establishments are only those establishments that are licensed for sale ofalcohol foronpremises consumption. That would bethe Interpretation that we would put on this ordinance unless directed otherwise. There may need to be some clarification on that point. I would suspect that if we were to mak every establishment that were licensed to sell alcohol for on or offpremises consumption than you would eliminate virtually all the areas in the City where these businesses otherwise could locate. My second comment would be that in all of these locafioval requirements both in this draft and in ordinances in other jurisdictions, one of the rationales behind them is to separate these types of uses from areas that son frequented by families and children. Councilors could all take now of the fact that both under current zoning and under the planned rezoning and re-development of the waterfront area that one of the goals of that activity by the City is w develop a family orienwd ares where there is a lotofpedmtrim traffic. It would be permissible for you to say that if the concern is to eliminate than uses in the downtown area, then they ought not be allowed to locate in the downtown development or waterfront development districts. That would take the waterfiont area only off the map here and still leave those three areas in the vicinity of Hammond Street, Union Street and the Bangor Ma1UStillwmer Avenue area where they could still legally locate as affected by the 500' proximity reap emeat. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Any questions on the zoning from any members? Do you want in move in the next issueorwhat would he helpful? A[ soroepoiN Erik also...is the handout tonight, are there revisions from Ism— City Solicitor. No. These are not. The version of the ordinance printed in yew weekly agendapacket ism=Her version so you should disregard that. Whailhavehandedoutis the March 19 version which incorporated some prior change. This is the version that was before the Committee last time the Committee met on this ordinance. So, what remains to be considered are the items which identified to you in my memo, which was printed in the agenda packet and I'll state for the record as well, that Mr. Foote who is here tonight as Counsel for Diva's has received a copy of the April 17 memorandum as well as the March 19 memorandum and draft ordnance. Councilor Aube: The remaining issues of the Committee with respect to your memo Erik, that we hnd not reached are the grandfathering clause and also the proposed no tipping, no Coaching riles. I look to the Committee members to correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed in me at the last meeting there was ruminants that the no tipping, no touching rules would apply as amputation within this ordinance. Is that correct? Councilor Crowley: That was the discussion. Councilor Aube:Okay.IMink youwere absent for that oneP ik. Withthatitemoutofthe way, shell we discuss the grandfathering clause. Erik, would you just give us a short synopsis ofwbat that means? City Solicitor:Yes. Therearenyouemsafiomthemap,anumberofpmposedzon g and locational restrictions on where Nese businesses could locate in the future. Some businesses, two businesses currently in existence, are in an area which would violate those provisions if you adopt then. 'As grendfsihering clause would allow them to remain for a limited period at their present location in order to recover whatever leasehold investments they've made in the premises. As originally drafted, the grandfathering provision was a straight five year grandfathering provision. Atter five years, they would have to reapply. If they did not meet the locational requhenmts at that time they would have to relocate. The amended version, which is attached to the draft ordinance in the March 19 memo and is also in front of you tonight, proposes that they be grandfathered for a one year period with an opportunity for a hardship appeal to the Hound of Appeals in the event they are unable to amortize their leasehold improvements within that one year period and in that event, the Bond of Appeals could grant themW to two additional years. I've indicated to you in my memo then the ordinance that was adopted by the City of New York in 1995, which was recently upheld in that state, has a one year grandfathering provision with a possiblity, of a hardship appeal. South Portland, which has an ordinance, which is in many respects very similar, has a straight 14 month grandfathering provision with no opportunity for hardship appeal. Five years is longer than you sea in ordinances of this type th otherjtnlsdictions and for that reason I'd recommund the alternative version, which is a one year grandfathering with apossible hardship appeal for up to two additional years. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Council discussion on the grandfathering issue? Councilor Woodcock: The Solicitor has already act forth, very briefly, the legal framework for this alternative version. In essence, really what this is is a policy determination on the part of the Council as to whether this kind ofbusinew is one that we wast within the City borders. This very directly presents the issue. The regulatory scheme that we have had under consideration for some time expresses a series of particular concerns which warrant regulation and given the risks involved, the detail level of three regulatory recommendation make some. Here, however, we are presented with the broader policy issue. From my perspective, the alternative version, which provides for a one year period, basically a sunset period for these businesses followed with the possibility of an appeal, is the preamble route. I don't say preferable to the regulatory, that has to be done because theses businesses will operate in the meantime, but preferrable to the earlier proposed section 6, A&B. What we really are faced with here is businesses that could greatly alter the character of this City. Although in Maine we are used to thinking ofplaces like Bangor as being large cities, they really are not Bangor is not a big enough town to have a business like these kinds of businesses exist without having a marred effect on the character of the City. The correspondence that l have received on this has been overwhelmingly in favor of eliminating the businesses altogether and that is further confirmation, in my view, of the community standard that rhe Council is certainly supposed to take account of in weighing this kind of proposal. So I would favor the alternative section drafted by the Solicitor with its sunset provision and right of hardship appeal. Councilor Aube: Any other discussion? Let me ask the City Solicitor, I concur with Councilor Woodcock's suggestion that we go to the one year and dim a two year appeals. Does the regulation require, or ordinance, the specifics by which a judgement would be made by the Board of Appeals for continuance? What would be the factors that would determine hardship? Do those have to be m the ordinance or would they be set out in policy? City Solicitor: They are set out in the alternative language, to an extent. In alternative section 6A, paragraph B, "Findings by the Board of Appeals under this paragraph most be based on verified financial data concerning the cost of any improvements and expenses and revenues of the establishment concaved or in the case of an owner of the leased premises, verified cats as to expenses and revenues derived from the lease." So, the standard there is that you must have the actual financial dam and that based on that actual data, the board must find that the war of the improvements was not recoverable within the one year grandfathering period. Councilor Aube: So the Board of Appeals would be acting m more of ajudicial fashion in determining... City Solicitor: It would be a fact finding... Councilor Aube: It would be fact finding. Okay. City Solicitor: It is nut left to their unbridled discretion. They would have to find the necessary facts. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Any questions? Councilor Crowley: I have no questions. I also favor the alternative that Council Chair Woodcock proposed. Councilor Aube: Councilor Woodcock? Councilor Woodcock: The only I might comment further on the hardship showing. The only part of it that I have a question about, really is since you have in New York a one year period, does New York also provide a two year period for hardship appeal? Solicitor Stumpfich I would have In check it to make sure. I'm not sure that there is a defined penia lm the harddrip appealsprovisiovs of ordimnce. Ifyou give me a second, I'II take a look at it. Councilor Woodcock: I'd almost be inclined either to take one of two different approaches on that. One would be to s amply allow an additional year, not an additional two years, or have an additional year with a mechanism to come back agave and make another showing of hardship. It does seem to be a little disproportionate that you put a one yen deadline and then you can get, and I realize the language is up to two years, but that you could get that much, really twice the time period, that you would have for the contemplated or twice the length of the period originally contemplated for closing down altogether. Councilor Aube: If I might add, my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong Erik, my understanding was that it would be an annual appeal for up to a one year and then the party would have to come back. Is that coned? So the Board of Appeals could give up to 24 months? City Solicitor: As a one time hardship appeal, yes. As this is drafted, there would not be opportunity for a subsequent Earner appeal. Councilor Aube: Okay. What l new Councilor Woodcock suggesting is a one year extension with a second appeal if that is necessary for a total of up to 24 months. Is that correct? Councilor Woodcock: Either that or aone yew period. Councilor Aube: What is the pleasure of the Committee on the grandfathering? Councilor Crowley: I would go with the one year with up to one year for an extension for hardship. So the 24 months. Councilor Aube: A total of 24 months. One year and then not to exceed. Councilor Farnham? Councilor Farnham: I would agree with Contrition Crowley. CouoailarAube: And I would agree as well so the Committee recommendation will be a one year grandfathering clause with up to 12 months to be granted by the Board of Appeals based on the fact-fending oat would have to take place with respect to the economics affecting the facility. Are there other items Erik that we need to deal with with respect to the regulatory policy? Solicitor Swmpfel: These are acouple ofthings. Mr. Foote, representing Diva's has raised an issue regarding one of the legislative findings, paragraph Id in the draft ordinance. As I explained m my memo, that particular f ding is a finding that the live nude entertainment offered by these establishments is in fact obscene under local community standards. A finding by the Council to that effect removes First Amendment Protection from that activity if your fording is based on arecord which establishes that it violates community standards. This draft ordumnce does not prohibit all adult entertainment or all exotic dancing. It does not m fact prohibit nude exotic dancing, it simply regulates its and unposes time, place and manna regulations to combat the secondary affects of the activity. Alegislaivefindingthaz the entertainment being offered by the existing establishments is obscene is not essential to the validity of this ordinance. So it is up to you nosed on what you've seen and heard whether you feel that you canreach that fulling and whetberornm you can reach it. whether it is appropriate to include in this ordviarce. It would do no harm to the effectiveness of the ordinance to delete that particular finding and Ivlr. Foote may want to address that issue further. Councilor Aube: Idr. Foote, would you like to speak? Wayne Foote, Representing Diva's: This particular finding Mr. Stumpfel is mitring about is essentially a finding that this sort of activity, nude dancing, in the content of the activity, violates community standards, any commonly standards, acceptable community standards. I ddsdc to suggest that this is obscenity in the light of what had been acceptable community standards here, the City Council franchises cable TV and accepts franchise fees from FrontierVision, what was Cablevision before that. I think you'll find that the Playboy Channel shows these activities. It shows, tonight's Playboy Channel shows sexual intercourse, am[ sex, anel sex and probably the tamest fling you'll find on it is exotic dancing, films of "ode dancing, and to suggest somehow that this activity, where it is adults only are permitted, is somehow obscene and yet that is not obscene activity, which you accept the funds for and which you license, would be, at the least, a hypocrisy, and is probably legally unsupportable. City Solicitor: Mr. Chau, responding briefly, again this finding is not essential for this ordinance but I think that the City Council can draw a distinction between live nudity and nudity that appears only on tape in terms of the local community standards. The setting in which the nudity takes place, I Unk, is also something that the Council can consider in determining whether or not community standards are viclanxi. Obviously, public nudity has a differaq or nudity in apublic place or place of business has a different import Nan video tape nudity in the privacy of one's own home. Again, whether or not you decide that this activity violates Bangor standards and is obscene is up to you. Again, it is not essential to the ordinance, but you can, I believe, drew that distinction in this case, where you are talking about live nudity versus taped nudity. W. Foote: If I may just address that. Firs[ of all, talking about where it occurs is mixing impact which you have addressed elsewhere in the ordinance with the actuel activity itself. We are talking about community standards in viewing the activity and what's occurring. Second, when you talk about live and video tape of someone else live, I guess I fail to see Naz distinction in terms again of the content of the act. Is the act obscene? It is not a question of is it live? Is it taped of someone else live? If it is mped of someone else live somewhere else, it is All the sane content, it is still the same act. I think that is a false distinction. Councilor Aube: Erik could I ask you in teems of a legislative finding, is a legislative finding based in pat on community discussion and dialogue of the specifics of the issue, is that conwt? Solicitor Stumpfel: There we a couple ofthivgs. Fhstofail, you bavetobase it on what you know, ofine activity itself. You have to have some idea of what act is actually occuring and you have had some testimony to than effect at prior hearings. As a legislative body, you we entitled to use your knowledge of this community and of its citizens in determining what the standards of me community are. In addition to that information that you already bring to these hearings, you have received, as Councilor Woodcock has indicated, numerous letters, the City Manger said 35, which express the views of members of this community on this issue. You have received communication at your hearings from members of the community about what their views are and you can take Nose into account as well. I know W. Foote is going to say, well there are other people in the community in favor of this stuff, so you have to consider everyone. You have in determine what the prevailing moral standards of this community are in making a finding of this type and that is up to you. Councilor Aube: My reason for talcum that was m get clarification because, I speak for myself, than do draw amajor distinction, as I motor many of the citizens of the community do, between what takes place is the television in yaw own home or what takes place in a community in a facility than is selling that in a certain way to the public, wbich is live. I think there is a big ditierence. I sense that in this community. Secondly, I think we have found through testimony here as well as, you mentioned the 35 letters, let me suggest that many of those lettere are signed by several people. There may be 35 letters, but it represents probably dozeus more in semis ofcommwdtypeople who have expressed that they don't feel mat these establishments, these types of facilities are part of our community's character. That they don't fit in into where our future should be and they don't fit in in the present of our community as to what we feel ought to be taking place within the combines of this community, so, 1, for one, feel very strongly that if me legislative findings am there, both from ow feeling of it an members of this Council but also information that has been provided to us and despite the fact that you may want to have a clear distinction, Mr. Foote, that you may want to put together what is seen on television as opposed to what is authorized and permitted within the City at a facility, I think that is where there is a diwioction and mat reasonable people can make and we a clear distinction between those two types of activities. Mr. Foote: There may well be a distinction. You may he contact that there can be some distinction, but that line is not drawn along obscenity laves, ate character of the act is what measures obscenity, whether it is on television or live, it ul still the question of what is the art. Councilor Aube: Erik, do we know, what the legislative failings have been, say for example, in New York or other places when there is a prohibition or a regulation of the industry? Have they regulated television as well? Solicitor Stumpfel: Several responses to that. There are different ways in which these ordinances come about a lin some cases, which is the case in New York, attempts are made to comprehensively regulate the come adult entertdment industry. In otherjurisdictions, South Portland's one, Portland is to some extent another, Houlton is mother, pieces of the business, so in, speak, are the focus of particular regulation, f would submit, because the community concerned sees particular mum in those pieces of business. This exhume has anarrow focus on commercial establishments that present live, nude entim mn rt. This ordinance is not a comprehensive regulation of all adult entertainment so it doesn't reach video stores, it doesn't reach x -razed movie theaters, it doesn't reach stores that may sell books or magazines. This reaches only live, nude common ment and that is an approach that you can adopt if you feel that there is more ham in this activity than Perhaps in those other activities or that the content is such that when it is presented in live displays, it is more offensive to local standards than if it is presented in a book that you have to purchase or avideo that you have to rent or on a N channel that you have to tum on. If you would like, I certainly can go back and pull out the legislative findings fiom each of the ordumnces that we've looked at. I don't.... Councilor Aube: That's not necessary Wayne Foote: We'll also be happy to submit this week for you a tape of one evenings viewing from the Playboy Channel for part of &a record just to make it very clear what the acts are. Councilor Woodcock: I thins there is a inference that attornty Foote is drawing that is not necessarily wounded here. The hrf ce seems to be that if it is on cable television, therefore, it cannot be patently offensive because it is on cable television and therefore anything that happens in Diva's or any other establishment that is on cable television can't be patently offensive and I think it is important for us to keep be mind that the public comment that has been elicited on this thus far has been elicited by the specific proposal before the Council and the specific issue before the Council has been the operation of these kinds of facilities within the city limits and the great weight of the correspondence that has been received is that this kind of activity within the city limits of Bangor is patently offensive. Now, these people have not been asked to offer thein views with respect to what should be on cable television, but because they have not addressed that doesn't meso we can't make a legislative fording that this conduct in these facilities is patently offensive to them. I might add beyond that that as City Manager Barrett said earlier, there are comments that we received from people outside of the city limits of Bangor, people in the surrounding communities and that was an issue that was addressed at an earlier Municipal Operators Committee Meeting and I think it is important for the record to reflect that the City Council does give weight both for and against to those who come from outside of the City of Bangor became we are a municipal teeter th a largely rural state and there are many outside the City of Bangor who also regularly visit may work here end who feel, though they may not live within the borders of the city, that they too have a stake in this community and indeed we feel they do. Those letters we also give weight to, but I don't agree with the distinction that Attorney Foote is drawing nor with the inference that he's proposing. Wayne Foote: If may, and just to much on another issue while I'm speaking to you, we talked about the age 18 of employees at the last Municipal Operations Meeting. I want to reiterate that we have serious concerns with the comma that is proposed right now with the safety of employees. This is, as you can tell from discussion that is going on here, (tape ended).... Councilor Woodcock and I would suggest some modification to what's proposed right now for language in terms of verifying employment and I suggest that what may be an avenue that provides for safety of employees without, I think, jeopardizing Councilor Woodcock's concern that underage people would be employed and I'd ask you to keep that open, I'd like to submit aproposed change to that by the end of this week for you folks for review. Now, that may mean going against- ahead- to another Committee meeting, but I think that safety is a very important issue that needs to be addressed and that the Council ... it seems to me Oat there most be some viable way to answer the Council's needs to insure thin minors are not employed and still provide for some confidentiality of those records and personal papas. There must be some middle ground. Councilor Fambam: Which pact of that information is of the most concern? Wayne Foote: I thick identity is the major concern. Councilor Furniture: Because I know the pictures ere on the Web page with maybe a first name or something or maybe that is a made up femme. Wayne Foote: net is the stage time. Councilor Farnham: Ok, that's amade up time. Yet, I guess someone watching it knows me look or the identity by just a visual sighting. BOTII TALKING AT ONCE Wayne Foote: The information that someone can get about you, with Yom name, your date of birth and your social security number is like the information they can get off the Web that they can get, the sources of list of credit reports, mere are sources of public records on a Web page where many of this information can be pulled off the Net and you can locate people's homes, their addresses, their telephone numbers and mat Is very difficult. Councilor Farnham: So, you drink adding chat to information the police have just increases the odds of someone getting it. Wayne Foote: I think ffape mandible). The way you are talking about producing this to the police makes it public record. If we can, on abi-weekly or a monthly basis, show the police a list of employees, with copies of the photo ID used to identify those employees, aW that the police then only take the information for that, for those where mere is some question regarding that ID aM that person. In that instance, mat specific police information to investigate a potential legal offense and that is a criminal intelligence matter which is protected by statute, it is not public information. If no charges are broughq it never becomes public information. If we just tum over a list of employees, mere is no specific investigation going on, that is public information and mat's why I suggest that we bring the information, with the employee verification and for those where there isn't adequate verification, where there is some reasonable suspicion by the police... we've min this name through, this doesn't seem right, l think then you have a question and then the police obviously take the information, but it is protected by smMe. Councilor Aube: I know you don't have the specifics before on, but ate you suggesting that then the names could be given ro the police where the police could run those names, is that what you are offering? Wayne Foote: Yes, l think that the only time it is going to take a long time to do that is the fust time, because I tlurik many of Mese people are going 0 be a repeat employee and that it is only going to be a couple of names after that on a regular basis. So Mat someone can come down add the police can run the information while someone from the company is there. Councilor Aube: Doesn't that become public information? Wayne Foote: I dont believe that Inquiries for law enforcement purposes on the police computer are public infomation. Solicitor Stumpfel: Not if you don't schemes any documents. Not if they don't generate a record. If there is no runts generated, than Mere is no record that is subject to disclosure of Freedom of Access. If may comment. There was alternative language which was included in the March 19 version and Beat's in front of you tonight. I don't know if the Committee discussed this last time... Councilor Aube: We did and we rejected. Solicitor Stutnpfel: I would encourage you take a look at whatever Mr. Foote may wish to submit on this point I do have a background on the military criminal justice system and at least in Mat selling, my experience is there is definitely a concern with the safety ofpeople who work m these establishments, (tape inaudible). I would encourage you to allow some additional time to consider an alternative version of this identification procedure. I am personally distressed that in Maine there appears to be no law which prohibits employing minors in these establishments. (tape inaudible) ...I do think, offering a personal view, that you do need to have some very enfomeable previsions which prevent that from occurring, if that's your policy decision. I don't drink you should do that in away that would jeopardize the safety of the employees of the establishments. Councilor Aube: And you indicated that you would have this information to us... Wayne Foote: I can put together a draftby the end ofthe week. I want to talk with Mr. St mpfel. Councilor Woodcock: We did have a corridor conversation on this and just so the competing concerns are aired here, on the one hand you have the concern raised by Attorney Foote which I thick is areal concem and deserves weight, which is that the information could be used m ultimately place the employees at risk. Competing with 10 that concem, there is another concem which to me is m least equally weighty, if not more and that is the risk that underage individuals will end W performing is these establishments. Those are the risks that were identified at our lett Committee hearing. It was, at least my sense at the time, that the latter risk was to be guarded against most zealously and that therefore, the burden should test with the employer to produce the comes, not on an intermittent basis, but on a immediate basis with tender to each individual who is aprospective employee with sufficient notice so that the identity and age of that emplayee could be verified before thin employee would actually work az the establishment I do have some concern about having no record at all, lust because it makes it virtually impossible then later for the police to even ascertain who has been through the system in the event that, for example, Diva's against its own beat efforts, ends up employing someone who later proves to be underage through some other means of identification, there would be no way of verifying that or checking it out. Wayne Foote: I think we can do that by requiting the employers to keep records. We can have some sort.... Councilor Woodcock: I'm not trying to resolve this right now. What I am suggesting is these are the competing interests really that I think need to be weighed and that the other side of the concern you've very well articulated the risk to the employee concern. That's the other side of the risk that the legislation was initially intended to address so I would, keeping that in mind, I would commend it m you and Solicitor Stumpfel to try and work out a workable middle ground. Wayne Foote: Just one last question. Inoticed that you went over the grandfathering issue widmut any public comment. 1A f/t IVARS�YUCM_Yi8 I[Ma Councilor Aube: Are there any other questions with respect to the mtificafion process? If not, we will look for some suggested language from you Mr. Foote and Erik and than we will proceed from there. We will take, if there is any, public testimony with respect to the grandfathering provision. Wayne Foote: Ijust wanted to paint out that we will, a little later this week, we've just gotten the figures back from the accountant, but Ms. Cormier 's investment in this building and in opening this business apparently exceeds a quarter of a million dollars and to expect to recover that investment m a yen or even two or maybe flues years is simply unrealistic. I would urge at the very minimum, the five year language that you had in the original draft. Quite buddy, I would suggest the approach that Portland is taking, which is that the sunset provision doesn't apply to the existing [businesses] end again, I guess taking about Portland, I wanted to reiterate on the issue of ripping, I would urge you to reconsider Portland's ordinance but this is a business that involves tipping. The primary concern, apparently, is contact with the dancers and I think that shouldn't completely rale out the method that dancers aro paid or receive their primary remuneration. Obviously I'll wait until you have raised other issues before I address thosq but those are some that Ijoat wanted to touch on. Councilor Aube: Is there my interest in reconsidering either of those two items? City Solicitor: The only other item that was identified If my memo.. Councilor Aube: Wait a minute, could we get an answerm my question first? [No Council response.] City Solicitor: I'm sorry, I apologize. The only outer item I know that was discussed in my last memo was that if the Committee were to recommend adoption of public indecency ordinance no there are two proposed before you in that regard, than much of, if not all of the regulatory ordnance becomes redundant and that may be an either/or recommendation by the Committee. You either recommend a regulatory ordinance and that's your approach or you recommend a public indecency. Councilor Aube: That's where I wanted to go to next. Are Nene any items on the regulatory ordinance that you needed direction from, Erik? City Solicitor: A last small one that I asked the Manager about. I understand the hours of operation are to be the same as those for bars and other such establishments. The state law has two different opening times for Nose establishments; 6 a.m. weekdays and 9 a.m. Sundays. Does the Committee have a preference on Nis? Councilor Aube: What does the state have again, I'm sorry? City Solicitor: For establishments licensed in serve alcohol for consumption on premises the state law requires that they be closed between Ne hours of 1:15 am. ad either 6 a.m. on weekdays or 9 am. on Sundays. Bssically what I'm asking is do you want to establish an opening time and if so, what is the opening time? Comailor Aube: Any thoughts from the Council? So, what you are looking for is 9 am or 6 am? Solicitor Stumpfel: Or some other time. State law is 9 am or 6 am. Fd BmreLL If you leave it the way it is, which is the way the state law liquor establishments is, 6 am consistently 7 days a week or 9 am Sundays. Councilor Aube: If we stay with the state, this would be what time? Ed Bene: 6 son weekdays, 9 am Sundays. Councilor Aube: All right Any discussion on that item? If not, is there any member. of the public who would like to speak N the regulatory ordinance at this point in time? We will be discussing the public indecency ordurrace next Anyone who -- would like to address Nat at this point in time? Diane Cormier (Owner of Diva's): Pripet like to make a comment, I don't know what it is regarding, this regulatory or whatever one you are in. Just I'd like to make a corrunent regarding the community standards and the public that is enjoying this type of entertainment. They can't be here tonight, they don't write letters, they are not calling you. Most of the people that are enjoying this type of entertainment and that want this type of entertainment, adult entertainment, are, many of them are upstanding citizens, they have good jobs, they are businessmen, they uavet throughout the =a and also many of them are couples and many of them are just all typesofetiffeaempeople. Theyare goodpeople, theyworkhad, theywantto spend then money on what type of entertainment they want. We are providing a very good service. We have a brand new nightclub. A premia nightclub ofMaine and regarding the community standards, the community standards inside of Diva's, inside our wails are, an one thirda that this type of behavior is obscene. They are traveling people we traveling from Boston, New Hampshire, Pontoon, Canada, Rhode Island, everywhere, I mean, people are coming into hotels, they are spending money. They a re buying food, they we buying gas. Christy's is booming when we are open. Many of the restaurants in town, the hotels are selling. You talk about the future of Bangor, it's growing. I've been to several meetings now and every time I'm here there are meetings regarding commerce, Clamber of Commerce and on said on and you are trying w drew business into Bangor, well, I'm doing that, I'm having people from all over come to Diva's because we have the forest entertainment in New England, I think. I've been to many other clubs and its of the highest standards, the most beautiful women, it's excellent service, wonderful dancing. We put on the best performance. I was at Mark's Showplace this weekend and the girls are real pretty but a lot of them don't know how to dame. We have a dance school, we teach, we have perfama ces, costumes, we go above ad beyond the standards of most clubs andlthinkthaz as fares entenainment.peopleme paying apretty shffdomfee. We put it all back mW the club, legal fees and everything, you know that we need to stay open. One of the issues have been incredible, we never eVated that it would cost this much to open a club and to have a nice club the way it is but it's been a lot of hard work. I can't even explain m you. I would just hope that you would be open minded enough W know that there we hundreds and thousands of people that -probably over 1200 to ISM people every month that have come through Diva's since we've opened. The community standards are not obscene to those people. We enjoy it People are calling me on the website. We're getting thousands of (tape inaudible), people are in support of this. You can not ignore those people. You need to open you mind to see that there is mom far this type of entertainment. You franchise a cable company that goes into people's homes. You have approved that, you have given me a certificate of occupancy. You have known that l was coming that I was going to open a beautiful facility. You gave me all the permits. I did everything that I had to. I've invested over a quarter of a million dollars into a beautiful club end I've trained these people. I've obeyed every law and I've done everything that I can to make sure the I can stay here. Mark's Showplace W Portland, they have let them stay. That is a beautiful facility, it is, it's fantastic and that is the standard that I had hoped be achieve when I was building my club. I worked in the best dubs, you lmow, Ims Vegas, Manhattan. I worked in a lot of places. Florida, there aro some fabulous clubs down thee. Dejavu owns over 50 clubs and I want to franchise. I would like to have a few, many another club, another Diva's at same point For this one, I wanted to have a nice club. I understand that you gave me all the certificates of occupancy. I spent all my money, there is no way to recoup in a year. Portland, you know, I think they did the right thing where what they did with him was they said okay, if you don't went anyone else come in, don't 13 let anyone else wine in, but let the clubs that are Here, that have worked so had and that are trying to improve themselves, let them stay. If you don't want anyone else in, don't let anyone else in but let us stay because there is no way we ever regain our losses at this point with this smset. We need to just be able to operate and not have to go through another certificate of occupancy and we did everything everybody else, you know, has to do. Why should we be different, it's not far. I really think you should consider that when you, because it's net right. There's so manypeople that are telling in it is not fair what they are doing to you and I thin t you should really open up your minds and know that there are a lm of people out there that want this. They can't come and speak to you. Those lenas are great, you know, that's the other side, but there's always more people and you need to be aware of that. net's all have to say. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Any questions of Ms. Cormier. Councilor Crowley. Councilor Crowley; In the interest of disclosure, I have to validate one of your Trials. That is that there is a contingent in the community that would like to see Diva's stay. Several business people who I had an association with when I was at dee Chamber indicated that it would be suicide for thew to wine forward w just so that the community is aware that there are two sides and two perspectives. I'm not sure whom that balance is and it certainly doesn't influence my position for the people I think that have elected me to represent them, but I do think that there is that perspective se l would validate that there are people who will not wine to speak. Diane Cormier: Thank you. Councilor Aube: Any other questions? I'm just curious. The quarter of a million donate, was that in the form of Naity or debt? Ms. Cormier: I have it broken up. Councilor Aube: Thank you Anyone else? This is speaking with respect to the regulation ordinance that we have been talking about. Patricia A. Mooney (119 Somerset Skeet, Bangor): I am opposed to the continuation of Diva's but I respectfully understand the decision of this Council to have a sunset ordinance w that they can have time to close. I come from South Portland. I also lived in Portland for 25 years and I have been proudly a citizen of Bangor for nine yew. When I was in South Portland, I lived in the neighborhood that was a family type neighborhood, ap ur neighborhood and it soon became bought out by businesses that changed the complexion of the neighborhood so severely that people had to move may that one after another it became, more and more businesses came in that made it weeds for children, for families to be par[ of that neighborhood. I was in Portland in another area that became a business area in the City and again, families moved from aparments, businesses moved, other types of bars and establishments came in. The complexion of the neighborhood changed medically. Then l moved to Bangor. I bad many people from the Portland area ask me bluntly, -why are you now in love with Bangor, you are a Pordander, what has changed your mind, your allegiance'? Whet l formally said to them was Bangor is what Portland was 20 years 14 ago. Bangor is a wonderful, wholesome,good, creative place to live and I Only believe and why I have spent several times here at the City Council, I truly believe that we are at a crossroads here in Bangor and we can choose which way we want our City to grow in. One of the ways that I would like to see our City grow is in a sense of integrity and dignity. Withthat in mind and l appreciate the work that you have dove, I appreciate the hours that we have spent on this issue and Ijust wanted to say my opinion that I really do not think that within the limits of the City of Bangor is a place for Diva's. Thank you. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Any questions? Michael Rutan (214 Birth Street, Bangor):I on a past member of the advisory Council in Bangor for downtown. Wetried to develop downtown. I was a member about 10 years ago to bring businesses in. In my oputiom as a business owner in Bangor, this is nor the direction to go. I attended College out of state end I was outside ofAHantic City. There were a number of clubs like this in Atlantic City and the problem is if you have a club like this, professional businesses don't move in around these clubs, so you either have to limit, as was spoken about earlier, where you only have one club or you're going to have multiple clubs in that area Idon't think any businessman could afford to open up a successful business next to something like this. Thank you. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Dave Malochick (Burger): The map that we had up earlier, was it a 500' barrier we had? Beater is apretty small area and I notice Hammond Street was on there. The area Chet you had tided, is that any where mound that blinking yellow light that me kids have to use when they cross the road, in that men? The Stillwater area you also had, I mean, we've got peaks there, a lot of other things I'm not sure were taken mm consideration. Some ofthe ball fields, some of the City parks, some of the small communities around Stillwater. Ed Barrett: None of Hammond Steel would be in the area that it would be allowed. The only area is from I-395 out the Cu in Road, so about from where the interchange is, out to near the City limits (inaudible). Them are a number of restaurants (inaudible)... The Stillwater area is primarily commeroial, the mall area and than a (inaudible). -Hogan Road. (Inaudible).... the nailer park from there out in the commercial area. Dave Malochick: There appears to be a lot of work to be done on that map finding those areas and I do appreciate that but the area of me mall, one of the things that was mentioned about not putting in places where kids will be, more is not a place in the City more kids will be than around the mall. The haffic going in and out of that area, the movie theaters that are there and that's putting kids right in the back yard of these places and l don't agree with that. Another thing l don't quite understand is a few things brought up. In businesses, most people are really W front with what they are doing and they don't want to hide Wbmtatiov. They dont really think about their people being hurt by thew names being known. It seems like they are doing a lot of things in the dark that they are womled about people knowing who they are and different things and proteeting their people. It just seems kind of strange to me that a business fiat we were going ro have in the City that we'd have to worry about the people working here m our City. I don't know if there is another business in town that is like that, that we have to worry about the people and care about their identities and stiff. I can see why another business here, not a bar, not a place in Bangor where you tell immediately every person who's working for you, not even worry about it, not even need to think twice about it the (inaudible)... they wouldn't even be a consideration. Youim iawlyopenupyombooksandshowitwthem. ljunthink that abusmass like this is but something Nm, well I know it's something that this City doesn't want. What's far and what's not fiin was mentioned, will be something you'll have to discuss. The business you've allowed to come into town You allowed it to get started, which I'm not sure should have happened. If it didn't happen, we wouldn't be here right now obviously. That is a major concern. I can see that, but flunk this is something you need to get rid of immediately. Something we don't want in our City, we don't want our kids around this. Thank you. Councilor Aube: Thank you. Any questions? Seeing no one else approach, let's procced to the public indecency ordinance. The Council has been given two versions of this ordinance. One version would prohibit nudity and sexual conduct and abuse in apublic place and the other is modeld after Old Orchard Beach, which would prohibit displays of such conduct in commercial establishments. Does the Committee have any comments on this? Councilor Crowley? Councilor Crowley: It sounds like we have an option of either/or rather than both. Councilor Aube: That's correct I think what we are looking m, there are 2 options within the public indecency ordinance that is before us. We certainly would have the option of proposing to the Council that we have a public indecency ordinance or a regulatory ordinance. A regulatory ordinance allows the establishment of these businesses to continue under the direction that we have so far been discussing. The second option would be the public iuleceacy ordinance which would basically disallow this type of activity within the City in total or in commercial establishments so there is an either/or In that regard. Solicitor Smmpfel: If may offer some explanation. The public indeoency approach really addresses the situation where you hod that the problem here is not the exotic nature of the dancing or the secondary affects of these business but is simply the public nudity aspect of it and I have outlined two approaches for you. One is to say that public nudity is something that, as conduct, is something that is not tolerable m the City of Bangor and therefore it is prohibitd. That would not probibit exotic dancing as such. It would require the dancers to be partially clothed when Noy were doing the dancing. The other approach is similar, it would prohibit nudity in any commercial establishments. ]fiat's the approach that was adopted back in 1918 by Old Orchard Beach That ord'wance has been upheld by the Maine Law Coutts and is m effect today. The Maine Law Count said that you can distinguish between the hamdul effects of nudity in commercial establishments being more severe than public nudity in other places. Again, that draft ordinance would not prohibit exotic dancing. These businesses can continue it some fashion even if that ordinance were to be adopted. It would simply prohibit them Gem conducting their dancing in the nude. That is an approach which Portland has itself adopted in some extent when they originally passed their ordinance regulating nude activity. In Portland they have limited nude activity m topless only and that was at a time when they were getting permits for the activity. Councilor Aube: So the, just to he very clear, so that everyone in this room understands what we sro considering here or beginning to discuss is that a public indecency ordinance would allow exotic dancing but it would not allow nudity or nude dancing in the City, either in a con rtercial establishment or anywhere depending on how we would we to establish that ordinance. There is a distinction. Solicitor Stumpfel: In reseed to bods of these ordinances, because the regulatory ordinance that is in front of you is narrowly focused on nude entMahunent if you recommend a public indecency ordinance which is than adopted by the Council, you really have removed the basis from which the regulatory ordinance addressed because that ordinance does apply only to nude entertainment and than you would have prohibited the nudity aspect. Councilor Crowley: What do we need to do to eliminate the activity from the community w quickly w possible, to grandfather it for the limited amount of nine possible and create aregulatory situation that would help us to guide the community through the transition with the greatest mount of restriction? I think that's what we are trying to get to. Comicilor Aube: What I drink this Committee, which was asked by the Council to come up with one recommendation for Council deliberation. Not to have three or fom options for Council deliberation but at least one which would allow appropriate amendments (inaudible) dialogue. The choice now before us is we have gone through the process of defining haw we would regulate existing establishments if we want to allow them to exist in the City. The question now before us is if we want to prohibit Nem outright. That is, prohibit nudity outright in either commercial establishments or throughout the City. There are two options. We could also grandfather existing establishments, if I'm not mistakeq who do provide nude dancing, but we would have a total prohibition on nude dancing and other sexually lewd activities within the confines of the City. Then is the choice before us. Solicitor Stumpfel:I want to follow W on some of those points. The Supreme Court and other courts held that nude dancing involves some degree of expressive conduct which is entitled to a modicum of First Amendment Protection. That constrains somewhat your action in this area. An approach which involves a public indecency ordhunce focuses on nudity as conduct and prohibits the conduct, it does not prohibit the expression. Although it has an incidental impact on the expressive element of erotic or exotic dancing, the courts have generally said because that impact is fairly modest, a public indecency approach is acceptable and does net violate the First Amendment That is one approach. Another approach is to not deal with the conduct, and not deal with the expressive content of the activity, but to deal only with its secondary effects, and that is the regulatory approach which you've examined at length. If you are talking about a total prohibition, and you are talking about prohibiting exotic dancing, period you can only do that as, if that's the purpose of wbzt you are trying to do, then you have on determine that that is obscene because only than determination removes the First Amendment protection so that is why I want to emphasize that [if your concern is only with the secondary effects, then] you can regulate dris, that is the approach that was looked at so far. If your concern is not with the secondary effects but is m fact with the public nudity aspen of it, you can adopt an ordinance which says there is no public nudity allowed m the City of Bangor; but adopting eitherofthose ordmances does not probibit these businesses from remaining in operation, w some way. Councilor Aube: But the distinction is they can remain in operation as exotic dances without full nudity. There is a difference there. (TAPE INAUDIBLE) Solicitor Smmpfeh These would be another issue if someone who did not have nude activity he their business came in and sought a liquor license. - Councilor Aube: That's correct. (Tapelnaudible) Councilor Aube: We haven't taken any action. a& Foote do you have a question? No, okay. That's what I'm waiting for the Committee to ... I think what I heard Councilor Crowley suggest was, in your question, haw do we move to put forth to the Council an ordinance that prohibits nudity in the City, is that correct? W. Foote? Could you approach the mic for the record, please? Wayne Foote: I understand that you've defined nudity by referring to another ordinance, but I thi d: for the sense of what we are working with here tonight and for everybody m the audience, perhaps it would be helpful to again, define nudity and what it is and look at your ordinance definition. Ithink that may be helpful. Solicitor Stumpfel: Yes, I don't have that in front of me, but the ordinance reheated to is in, I believe, Chapter b of our ordinances and nudity, as defined in that chapter, includes showing of the human male or female genitals, pubic mea or buttocks, the female breast or the top of the nipple, and depiction of the covered male genitals in a discernibly turgid state. As compared to some of the models that are out there, the hrdiana Public Indecency Statute, for example, our existing ordinance definition refers to the buttocks, [so] this ordinance would require slightly more coverage than the Indiana Public Indecency Statute. Wayne Foote: Was that a topless as well, any part of the breast? Solicitor Stumpfel: Below top of the nipple. Wayne Foote: That seems to cover most evening gowns or bikinis, as far as I can tell. Most bathing suits people would wear on a beach would not permined. Would that be actuate? Or some bathing suits that people could legally wear on a beach? 18 BOTH SPEAKING AT ONCE Wayne Foote: Or a bathing suit that shows the lower part of the breast below the rtippie? I rojust trying to be clear on what's involved have. How are you interpreting that? Solicitor Smmptch If aomwve were exposing themselves on a City beach, yes that would violate the ordinance. I'm not aware that we have any beaches in this City. Councilor Aube: Erik, could you speak to the Old Orchard Beach Ordinance, at leas[ It my mind, that ordinance which was upheld, probibits, how are they defining nudity in that ordinance? Solicitor Stumpfel: In a similar fashion, I would have to go back and pall it out to give you the exact language. Councilor Aube: Let me suggest that if Old Orchard Beach can prohibit nude dancing that we in Bangor can do the same. And we can define that very clearly as to what that is. I guess I'm getting a little frustrated by the process here as to some of the specifics and I certainly recognize W. Foote your right to ask the question. The models we are looking aS Old Orchard Beach is a community which caters to tourists add caters to establishments and a lot of bars and w forth. They saw fit, a number of years ago, to pass an numerics which prohibits nudity in commercial establishments. Clearly, the City of Bangor could do the same if it chose to and, I guess the question befre us, is how we define nudity Nen would also limit ... we would define what exotic dancing could be construed as. Is that correet? Solicitor Stampfel: The Old Oahard Beach case decided by the Law Court in 1998, involved atopless wait person at abarhestaurant so that ordinance does include toplessness within its definition of nudity. Councilor Aube: Does not include? Solicitor Surcowel: Does include, yes. In other words, toplessness is nudity under the Old Orchard Beach ordinance. Councilor Aube: It is prohibited. Toplessness is prohibited in Old Orchard Beach-- Notalloww- Thank you. Edward Barrett: Just to make sure that everyone wderstands the distinction. On the one hand under the regulatory ordinance, you can regulate where businesses locate. (inaudible..mom than one speaker)... of that operation. Under the prohibition against nudity, then you would regulate what happens or the state or degree of undress within those businesses, but they would still be allowed to locate in appropriately zoned commercial status. If you wish to get back into some combination Erik had suggested earlier, a regulatory ordinance with some fi nitation on full nudity, I think then wall be done. Solicitor Smmpfel: Thai is another approach you could take Ed Barrett Could you include, for example, what is being proposed N the commercial... commercial nudity the definition there into the regulatory influence? Solwitor Schoo l: Yes. Ed Barren: So you could fake that combination approach which would regulate location of these businesses and regulate or at least establish a minimum level of dress required by employees performing. Solicitor Stumpfel: What you would have a that point, you would be addressing conduct which, you would need to do some definition of what, to decide what it is you are regulating ifyou are talking about businesses which were not offering full nudity as part of their entertainment. Someone who employs a scantily clad waitress might fall under the ordinance, at that point. You would need a go back and do some more work. Conciliar Aube: What is the pleasure of the Committee? Councilor Crowley: The recommendation that I am still trying an understand to the Council is to ban what we have in as quick an order as is respectably possible. So I guess, the concept of what we do between now and Nen, I don't really care so long as we reach that point So I think ... what is it.. help me understand what I need to say in order to... Solicitor Stumpfel: If you are talking about prohibiting conduct which is entitled to Flirt Amendment protection or other forms ofFthan Amendment expression, you can only probibit expressive conduct which includes dancing if you fend that it is obscene ander local community standards and that means Nat it appeals m the patient intent, is grossly offensive and violates community standards. Thar is not what any of these ordinances attempts to do. I want in be very clear about that. One version of these ordinances isa regulatory ordinance which imposes time, place and manner restructure on businesses of this type in order to built their negative secondary effects. The other approach here, which is in front of you, is apublic indecency approach which focuses on nudity N public as conduct Nat says you cannot be nude in apublic place. However, that approach would still allow the businesses to continue to operate so long as the dancers were clothed to the degree requtred by the ordinance. And neither one of these approaches, and I want to be very clear about that, neither one of Nese approaches says that you cannot have adult entertainment or exotic dancing or erotic dancing of some type in the City of Bangor. Neither one of the versions purports to do that. Councilor Aube: But they do limit how we are defining that type of dancing? Solicitor Stumpfel: In one case, it would impose name regulamry restrictions on it and another case, you could do basically whatever the market would bear so long as your dancers were clothed to the extent the ordinance required. Councilor Aube: Okay 0{g Wayne Foote: You talk about the definfion of nudity again inihe regulation of (inaudible), I think the 1978 case that you are talking about may have to be viewed in light of some later cases that came along and I trick: the Indiana ordinance that Mr. Stumpfel is referring to when they talk about permissible limitation on the clothing is g.strings aM patties, which is far less restrictive than you we suggesting here. Ijust wanted to point that out. Solicitor Stumpfel: We can into a this back and forth on this issue. Councilor Ache:Exactly. What l find frustrating is thaz I think many of us know what the community standards are. We've beard what the community wants to do and what I'm asking and I think what Councilor Crowley is asking is how do we formulate one ordinmse that allows us to regulate the existing establishments and clearly define a safe zone Or the City of Bangor that prohibits nudity and the conduct ofmahty. Solicitor Stumpfel: There are two ways. You have apublic indecency ordinance which says no public nudity period or no public nudity in commercial establishments. The second way is to limit the degree of nudity within the regulatory countries to say no full nudity or some other variation of that- If your intent is to any no adult entertainment in the City of Bangor then you need an continue which says adult enterteimnent is obscene and then prohibit it. These ordinances do not prohibit adult entertainment. Councilor Aube: No, I think shot's what I was hearing Councilor Crowley suggest. I'm going to suggest we take a five minute recess so we can understand what the options are before us. I apologize to those from the public but I think that will maybe shorten the time frame in which those of you in the public who came to make statements will know what you can make statement about. Thank you. 5 MINUTE BUE Councilor Aube: Thank you for bearing with us. I'll call the meeting of the Municipal Operators Committee back together. I think we aro able to get a little clearer definition as to what our options are az this point in time given the questions that some of us are raising so at this point in tune I would entertain any motion or changes or suggestions that the Council may have and then we will hear if anyone from the public would like to comment. Councilor Crowley: Yes. There me two that were mentioned earlier and I apologize for the slow working process here. I would like to have built into the recommendation, and bring to Council, that we include with regard to liquor sales, which currently says five hundred feet on premises liquor sales, I would like to have that language adjusted so thaz it would include liquor sales on premise or liquor sale off premise, consumption off site. Councilor Aube: Let's take those one az a time. This suggestion or amendment that Councilor Crowley is offering would restrict establishments of this business against the same criteria we saw on the map but also including another factor which would be Pill within 500' of establishments that sell liquor on the site or for consumption off site. Any discussion on that item. Mr. Foote? Wayne Foote: I would understand that to mean like Christy's where they sell beer in a convenience store in the City. ASI understood the comment earlier, that would pretty much rule out most canes in the City. I would suggest that if you consider that, then you might wasaider opening some other zones, such as some of the industrial zones. Or some other area where them is not a lot of alcohol consumption where you won't have the conflict between the use at night during the evening hours and the businesses during the day. However, it appears that you are going to limit this down to about 2-3 lots in the City. I don't know if that is some de facto method of abolishing the nude dancing money. Is there some reason m include 500' offpromises as well? Solicitor Stmnpfel: As far as the impact of that restriction we are going to have to have the Planning Office chart that out on the plans that you've already seen to see how that would impact those areas otherwise where adult entertainment establishments, nude dance clubs would otherwise be allowed to locate. It may well he that you would need to consider some extension of the permissible zones. If you have locational regulations for these establishments in your commute, if that is your approach, you must still leave some areas where they are legally allowed to locate. Within that framework, yes, you can consider a change which would include any alcohol establishment, including Christy's or whoever sells alcohol for off premises consumption so long as there are some areas in the City where they can legally locate. Wayne Foote: I would assume that means other than a few scatrered lots here and there throughout the zone, but rather some substantial zone areas. Solicitor Stampfel: The courts quibble about what is substantial and what isn't but what you start by doing is looking at the map and seeing what's on there. Wayne Foote: Thank you. Councilor Aube: Let mejust say that one of the reasons that this has been brought up and it certainly was, at least some of as had been notified and it was part of Police Beat I might ad, that there seems to be a significant amount of drinking going on in the vehicles outside the various establishments that are in the City so one of the things that we want to do is try to deal with that issue as well. Thai is beginning to cause accidents and we've had testimony in the past from companies who have seen people drinking in the parking lots, dr asking around the cans, leaving of debris and to the extent that we can begin to looking at that as an issue and hopefully will reduce the convenience of being able to consume beverages on site. Whatisthepleasureofthe Committee on this item? It will be added for the recommendation. Councilor Crowley? Councilor Crowley: I have one further recommendation and it is in response to citizen Malochick's comments or observation of downtown, waterfront and children. My understanding of what our objectives are for the continued re -development of the downtown district and the rehabilitation of our waterfront is one that would include a 22 number of family type activities including museums, children's museums and other possible venues, therefore I would like to sea language added to [his ordinance that would prohibit any future development of Us type of business in the downtown or waterfront districts. Councilor Aube: That will be mapped out as well. Any comments from the public on that? The pleasure of the Council? It's unanimous to proceed. Councilor FarMsm:I would like to bring up the definition of the nudity end whether or not we can define nudity as topless or how we can include something like that. Solicitor Stompfel: The regulatory ordinance in front of you, as drafted, applies only to businesses that offer live nudity as part of their entertainment. Ifyou want to make an amendment re the ordinance which limits that in some fashion so that fail nudity is no longer allowed, you would do that under the operational limitations which are contained, in I believe section 3, excuse me, section 4. So what you would do is to list those reshictions there, you could amend that to include aprevision similar to the provision in the Portland ordinance which limits the permissible nudity in establishments of Us type to something less Nm full nudity. That could be topless only or some other variation. Councilor Aube: I think what Councilor Farnham's question was could we limit nudity 9 the establishments through the regulatory process? Solicitor Stumpfel indicated that could be done. Whatisthepleasureofthe Committee?. Councilor Crawley: I have a question ifwe do that. Does that m effect unravel the work we have... Solicitor Stumpfel: The way this is drafted, the busivesess that it regulates are defined by reference to the nude entertainment that they offer, in other words, if you don't offs nude entertainment, this ordinance does not regulate you. So, if you prohibit all nudity in such businesses the way this is drafted, in effect, you are not regulating, you are prohibiting. If you limit the type of nudity that they can have, then that is a regulation. If you were to draft a broader ordinance addressing the whole gamut of adult entertainment type uses or adult establishments, then yes, as a regulatory measure, you could say no full nudity. The way this is drafted this ordinance before you does not define the whole gamut of adult establishments, it simply addresses those thin offer live nudity as entertainment You lose the (inaudible) that you are regulating if you say no live nudity. It is a drafting issue, it is not a constitutional issue but within the context of Ws ordinance in front of you, if you want to limit the nudity in some fesltion, as part of the regulatory restrictions, yes you can do Nat If that is topless only, as in Portland, or something similm then that is a permissible amendment. Councilor Aube: Does the Committee have any views on this? Councilor Crowley: Do we have a proposal? 23 Councilor Aube: the question is with respect to the regulatory ordinance, do we want' to regulate or define nudity. Portland has chosen in define that widdn thew regulatory ordinmrce, not a prohibition. To limit it m topless only. That is the choice then we do have in the regulatory process. Currently, under this ordinance, usual nudity is allowed within the regulatory process. If someone is in compliance with all the regulations, they would be able to have total nudity. The question is do we want to limit nudity U these establishments? Councilor Famhem: With the other ordinance that we have, the amusement ordinance that prohibits an alcohol license along with nudity, would that still apply? Solicitor Stumpfel: The City's special amusement ordinance will continue to apply for establishments that sell alcohol. To those establishments you can not have nudity of my kind including topless nudity. Councilor positions: So I would pm that out there then, limiting the type of nudity. Councilor Aube: So the item that we are now discussing is that within the regulatory ordinance that we would limit nudity to topless only? Councilor Crawley: Seconded. Councilor Aube: Moved and seconded. Any discussion? Any from the public that would like to address that issue? Mr Foote? Wayne Foote: It is not the nudity issue itself. It seems you are making a broad spectrum of amendments here. As we work pretty carefully through drafts of this from meeting to meeting, and there is abroad spectrum of amendments, which as I understand what you are talking about, now you aro planning on sending to the Council in this form without mailer review. Is that correct? Or are you planning on having another meeting to talk about these emrnkWmts to look at the language? Councilor Aube: No, No. It would be my preference that we move this language to the Council for next Monday night. Wayne Foote:I think you are being somewhat hasty in that regard given the breadth of the amendments that you've talked about in the last couple of minutes since your executive session out there. Councilor Aube: Ilhat was not an executive session Wayne Foote: Well immune you get four Councilors talking privately off the record it is an executive session but the breadth amendments that you have come out with here I would suggest defeats the prepare of the careful review process that you have. Councilor Aube: Our charge as a Committee has been to work with a draft. We have been working with a draft for a number of weeks, changing them over time. It is am responsibility to give the full Council an ordinance that they can send back to this Committee for further refuting, in eliminate, to substicate, to amend, whatever it 24 pleases. That will be an open process on this Monday evening. I them: it is time we start moving this agenda forward to the full Council to get thew input so that we can Proceed Ifthere is a Cmmciloq you know how our City Council works, ifthere are one or two Councilors that respectfully request additional time because they have concern, we are generally supportive ofinet, but I think it's now time for this Committee to try to wap up its work, to put together a ordinance before the Council that we feel meets the issues that have been mined throughout this process and then go from there. We can always come back and continue to do our work. We look forward to hearing your information on Friday. Wayne Foote: Will that be time for it to go to the Council on Friday? Councilor Aube: Well, we could do it in the form of substitute amendment is what I understand in discussion with Councilor Woodcock that that is a possibility depending upon what you and Enk come up with. Wayne Foote: Thank you. Councilor Aube: Would anyone fram the public like to speak tonight? Carol Sheman (resident of Bangor): As I understood the amendment it was to, you talked about limiting the definition of nudity. It sounds like to me you are wanting to expand, you're trying to say Nat toplessness is also regulated or inchuded under these regulations? Councilor Aube: No. I think since our ordinance that we've been discussing is refolding nude establishments, Ne question that we mise is can we limit these establishments and what we were able to learn from some other legislative actions that have taken place in other communities is Nat you can limit that so in this case what we were suggesting, the Cmnmittce was suggesting is that business institutions that me in compliance with our regulation ore nancq if it should pass the Council and become pan of this community's laws, would limit nudity to topless only. Carol Shemam: My comments aremore general really. Itjust makes no sense to me to allow any pan of our City to be a aspect for vice and a breeding ground for misconduct that that misconduct cannot be confined by any kind of City planning. To cone an area and say this area is okay to let go in that direction seems In me to he just a major mistake. I'd like to ask why, we talk about eithetyoq why can we not simply say that live nude entermhunent is offensive to prevailing community standards in the City of Bangor as expressed N letters and calls and public hearings, darefore commercial nudity as defined by whatever statute was read earlier is banned and the following regulations pertain to the existing businesses while they are allowed to sunset or be grandfathered out and then name these regulations that you've been developing. Why can it not be that straightforward? Solicitor Slumpfel: If you went to re-draft this to do that, I will do that. We are not going to be on the agenda Monday night if you do. Version two of the Public Indecency Ordinance, which says no commercial nudity in the City of Bangor, if you wish to incorporate within that some grandfathering for the existing establishments 25 with additional regulations drawn out of this regulatory ordinance, yes you could do that, but that was one of the pans to be drafted Carol Sherman: Itjust seems tome that that is what has been emerging. Councilor Farnham: The only thing I see happening then is that as long as a swhnsuit type thing is worn, what's happening a Diva's location is allowed to stay in that location as long as a swimsuit We thing is worn and then we also could allow alcohol an that location, so now it's no longer, she would be granted an amusement permit and so we've got we still have the dancing and now we can add alcohol to it to Oat particular location if we don't regulate. So l don't know which is worse. If you just ban total nudity, that's not going to change the situation that exists now because then theyjasi make sure they wear something and they can go on to conduct business, at least that's the way I understand it. They could go on in conduct business as general as long ar they don't go fully nude. Am I correct or no? Solicitor Stumpfel: You certainly would have a harder time adopting an ordinance that would say no exotic clearing, clothed or anclothed. That ordinance is not in front of you and there is no draft that does that. Councilor Famham: That would be really hard. Councilor Aube: My othercommerms? Councilor Crowley: Let's consider this a rehearsal for what I think i have been party to. I believe that what we have attempted to do, although it is not as clear cut, it is identical to what you just suggested, and that is that we we going to propose to the Council then we not allow any further development of this type in the City. We have put a lane line O place to deal with the development that is currently is in the City and during the time line that we have, we have some regulatory language that has tightened up what we believe is reasonable to get us from where we are to where we want to be, which is to eliminate the activity from the community. Ed Eanett: Let me take one more stab at explaining the options that you have as it stands right now. The fust option you have under the time, place and manner limitations is to regulate where such adult entertainment establishments can be located and to regulate to a certain extent the level of undress that is allowed but the minute you go past that and say no nudity then you are kicking into the situation that we have right now which is that a place like any existing bar, lounge, restaurant in the City of Bangor Oat serves liquor cad has an amusement permit can currently have exotic dancing by men or women so long as they meet minimum standards of undress or dress, excuse me. The point is that on the one hand you can say no partial nudity, in which case the establishments that are already located in certain places in this community can continue to operate there so long as they meet the standards of these that are required. In addition, you no longer have the prohibition against alcohol in those establishments because that's tied to meeting those levels of dress. Everybody got me so per. So those are kind of the two options that you have. If you wish to look at something else, then I think you need to give the Solicitor some time to do some re- valuations of this. I'm somewhat uncomfortable, at tbis pointjust insuring that 26 everybody understands the options within the framework we've been discussing. You can allow Diva's to continue where it is ifthey meet the standards of behavior ad out or the standards of dress set out in the Commercial Nudity Ordinance a which point they could also wine back with an application for a liquor license, which would have to be reheard based on our original hearing adding other assumptions to it or you carr look at regulating the location of these kinds of operations. The difficulty that you get into is the extent of regulations and the extent to which it follows them. At what point does it begin to affect other bars and restaurants in town Nat may have waitstaff that aren't completely dressed or dressed to whatever level you want to get dressed W. This are some of the difficulties that you start running into here so you can bare under Erik's one proposal, commercial nudity by establishing minimal levels of dress which Diva's and Deb's and any other establishment like this would Nen have to meet and could meet at their current locations, but it gets more and more difficult to draw distinctions between Nose businesses and otter businesses in town that on a regular or periodic basis have entertainment Nat we would generically term adult. Solicitor Stumpfel: The gist of a regulatory ordinance is that if they comply with the regulations than they are legal. That's one approach. The gist of a public indecency ordinance is that if they are suitably clothed as requited by the ordinance Nen they are legal. Regardless of which of those approaches you adopt, neither one of these approaches is going to say that certain businesses owned by cement people can not in some foram continue. Ed Barrett The question becomes what form do you wish them to continue m or do you wish to instruct the Solicitor to come back and look a other alternatives? Amore extensive regulatory framework. Solicitor Startled: Even if you take an obscenity approach, if you determine that cement conduct is offensive (itans ible) and violates community standards, than you have to define what conduct is declared to be obscene, prohibit it, and if they don't do it, that they are legal. Councilor Aube: What is the pleasure of the Committee at this point? Councilor Crowley: I'm satisfied with (inaudible) Councilor Aube: I believe what we, correct me if Pm wrong, do you have all the Information we need? Solicitor Sempfel: On either approach, regardless of which you want to recommend, I can put something together before the Council. Councilor Aube: Okay. How does the Committee want to proceed? With the regulatory approach to the Council at this poet in time or do you wish to come back and have another discussion? Ed Barren: I know everyone is in a hurry but I think, depending on which approach you take, I think we need in be sure in wine way, shape or form that the other members of the Council understand some of the issues that we've brought up here and 27 I think that can be accomplished in a couple of ways. One would be to simply have a briefing prior to Monday's meeting with our Council in wodrshop session to bring them up to daze or to schedule it at another time, depending on what you prefer, but I [bink this does get somewhat fuzzy in understanding the implications of some of these tbmgs, I thunk it's important and now everyone has had the opportunity to participate th tonight's discussion that may not have been fully explored w other meetings. I would be glad on Monday have Erik do a half here workshop to make a presentation to the Council recognbing that at that meeting we will have again, an opportunity for public comment from everyone who wishes to come and speak and recognizing that the Council is under no obligation to take action at Monday's meeting. Councilor Aube: Let me speak for myself. I think that would be the preferred route as I expressed to Mr. Foote. I think it Is time that we bring tris to the Council, get the other members who have not participated to provide input as we get closer to some kind offinality here, the issues do get fuzzier perhaps. We rend m get other Councilor's perspectives and so I think it would be very belpfal, I think more than a half hour is needed, however, for the briefing to the Council. Solicitor Smmpfel: Half an hour will be fully adequate. I think if we talk longer than that we get more confused. Contraction Aube: Well to me stay that my opinion is l don't believe a half hour is sufficient but staff may choose to do it in 30 minutes. That we allow formatto come forward Monday night at the Council with certainly the understmd'mg, as I said earlier, things con always come back ro Committee for further redefinition for other information, for modification, but let's get something on the Council agenda At least get an indication of how our other members feel, certainly 2 or 3 of them have been participating. Some of them have expressed to me then views of how they'd like to see the things a least start moving forward so that they can have a dialogue in that regard, but I think it is time to put it in that context at tins point in time. Hearing no objection, we will proceed m that way. Are there members of the public who wish to speak? Diane Cormier. Diane Cormier (Owner of Diva's): I'd just like to say for the record that this meeting was, I'm just overwhelmed that in a period of two hours you've managed to zone us out completely. It seems like from all those tittle red circles really couldn't be. You've when the business and now you've made it restricting, prohibiting nudity and Michael Crawley, who doesn't care, he just wants m man it through and he only wants 30 minutes, I think that you're not giving this enough weight. This is very serious. You me affecting a lot of lives. I know you are thed and I'm tired too. it's crating me a lot of money to come m these meetings and Ijust hope [best you would give it enough consideration to understand that there is a lot invested. Not only money, but time and people's lives. You will need to focus on not just yourself, but the other thousands of people that have a right to choose the type of entertainment they want and I would hope that you would give that enough consideration to find a place with not the requirements. We are willing to work with you. We are willing to work with the Police. We don't want to break any laws. We just want to provide [vice and have ajob and don'tjust push this through, you know. Theindustrial, looking a industrial meas, I think you need to really consider the time to take to do 28 that Obviously, we we whose out commercially. I mean, if I could be, afford some of those spoor out at the Bangor Mall or wherever, you know, I mean it's abroad out of limit in be able to move into those areas for most businesses. Please Who that into consideration andjust consider the other citizens of Bangor and don'tjust push it through. Give it the time that it should have. Thank you. Councilor Aube: Thardk you. For the record l thhdk it is important m now that this Council has been meeting on this subject for months. We have heard from proponents and certainly welcome these who would like to again come out and be proponents of that. The zoning restriction that was referred to certainly were what was approved or recommended at the last meeting. This is the map that we were able to get this evening, I don't know when that was made available to you or your counsel, perhaps thought is the dust time. net process, that line of thinking bas been under review and fact -filling by Us Committee for some time and was discussed at several meetings past ad I don't think we are trying to rush things through. I think in the last how or so obviously there were items Naz had been hanging around that we hadn't made a decision on or a number of weeks and because this Committee, which has worked numerous hours, was now finally coming to some conclusion. I don't think new Naz should be interpreted by the community as though we aren't doing due diligence to that process. It is finally coming to we have N make some decisions. We have m proceed in such a way to move this thing forward. As Committee Chairman, if the Council surds it back N this Committee, we will continue to do fact Ending, we will look at those changes that were asked by Council to do so and there is mother better way that (inaudible) this City fully represented N the dialogue (ban the discussion before all it's elected members. We ate forumete now we have members on the Council now, we will have 9 perspectives, 9 voices Nat can represent the citizens and the people in the community are certainly welcome to participate in that dialogue on Monday evening. I Kink it is time we open that up and that's where I'm coming from. I'm not afiaid m wine back and do more work If the Council wants us to, but it is time to get the full community and the fall Council's perspective. Mr. Foote? Wayne From: I would ask that the workshop session be scheduled for the Council Chamber, if possible so that members of the public can attend it b hear the briefing that the Council gets and we would like to record it also. Erik Stumpfeb That's how they we normally done. Councilor Aube: It is important to note Ila( Council workshops are always held or the open. They we usually held next door because they usually are smaller audiences, but if.. Ed Barratt: (Inaudible) Councilor Aube: Them you. Are there any other comments that anyone from the public would like to make at this point in time? Rick Bowden(Bangor, ME): She wanted N know what other people think. Iam opposed to what she wants. I'd like to see her business out of hem. She is a 29 businesswoman as from what she says. She's spent a lot of money, I don't want to sce it If she loses her money, that's We bad. A lot of businesses go under. She wanted to know what other people think, I'm letting her know what think. If she don't like it, that's We bad. I went to see her leave, let her leave. Thanks. Councilor Aube: Questions of Mr. Bowden? Any other members of the public wish to speak? Seeing no one come forward then I Nim: the Committee will stand in adjournment and we will have this, Ne regulatory ordinmrce before the Council on Monday night. Thank you. moo -21,98 30